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Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

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Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#61
post #5

I remember seeing this on TV and not understanding why microsoft was threatened with a fine if they ship IE by default on their products. Actually I still don't. Nobody ever stopped me from downloading another browser on windows, anyone who wants to do it will do it. So people did have a choice, they just didn't know they had it, and it's their problem, not microsoft's! Could someone explain this to me?

The EU just followed what the US courts said during Clinton. Clinton turned MS into a whipping boy. In retrospect, the courts were wrong. Netscape's profit model made no sense. People didn't want to pay for commodity software like a web browser. MS had every right to release a free one bundled with their platform. The web isn't some optional thing. A browser is part of every OS now. On top of it, the deal MS signed d…

@drzaiusapelord, I honestly don't know where to start with you, but I'll try.

> Clinton turned MS into a whipping boy.

No, he didn't. Bill Gates and Co got away with what amounted to a misdemeanor, when they could easily have been nailed with multiple felonies. Bill Gates once bragged openly that MS got away with a slap on the wrist. He knew what he was talking about.

> the deal MS signed didn't let it control OEMs

What are you talking about? MS controlled everybody, including Intel. One of the revelations of the anti-trust trial was that at one time, Intel wanted to give the ISP business a shot. Gates objected because that was competition he didn't want to face.

Recall that Steve McNeally of then Sun Microsystems once had this idea of the network as the computer, what we now call Cloud computing. MS drew a hammer at it because of the obvious threat to its cash cow - Windows and Office.

MS had (still has) a noose around the necks of OEMs. Those guys have to pay MS for every PC they ship, even once that don't ship with Windows. Do you know what effect that had on their desire to ship any other OS on their PCs?

> The Netscape/MS fight wasn't worth it. The government should never have stepped in.

BS! If the govt had not stepped in to curtail the activities of an evil empire, technological progress, especially in the software arena, would have been set back a lot more than it has. And it took a democratic administration to do it. No republican administration was going to do it, because, after all, they are always good for business.

> Tech is generally a meritocracy. People can just migrate to whatever software they life.

That and the test of the last paragraph of your comment is proof that you're a paid shrill.

Yes, tech can be a meritocracy, if the playing field is level. Unfortunately, it often is not, because tech companies can get into deals that are anti-competitive and anti-consumer.

Recall that a few years ago Intel was fined heavily because it had made deals with companies that discouraged them from using AMD's processors. Do you know how damaging deals like that had on AMD and on consumer choices?

Well-informed people can migrate to any other software they like. Unfortunately, the vast majority of users at that time were not well-informed. Remember that we are talking of a time before commercial Internet/Web. Even today, there are people who still think that their OS is Internet Explorer and that Yahoo is a browser.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's true, my straw man doesn't quite stand up in this case. However it still doesn't explain why Internet Explorer was the target when there is so much other software that was bundled with Windows, which too had for profit competitors? Those people who exclusively used Internet Explorer as "the Internet" would too have used the bundled mail client (I can't remember what it was called back in the day) exclusiv…

I don't think there was anything else bundled with Windows that explicitly targeted other for-profit competitors at that time. Dr-DOS and the Berkley screen saver stuff are two other situations that spring to mind, both of which resulted in legal cases, but the size/scope of MS by the time the Netscape thing came around was probably the tipping point (considering their previous behavior already demonstrated a pattern…

It is amusing however how it is a practice now that all major technology companies partake in. For example Google & Apple constantly take ideas from a 3rd party apps and integrate them for free into Android/iOS.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm less scared because at least Chrome (or rather Blink / webkit) is open source so can (and is) implemented in other browsers. However I do agree with you that it isn't healthy for any single rendering engine to monopolise the internet.

The fact that Chrome is open source doesn't helps me, a Firefox/Safari user, when I see the site that works correctly only on Chrome. Open source or not, I don't want to use Chrome. There was a time when Chrome was lean, now Chrome is a pig. Not to mention blatant Chrome push from Google - the last one is Inbox, "it works only on Chrome". Set Safari user agent to Chrome? Everything works well. Shame on you, Google. T…

This is a developer of the site problem, not a Chrome or Firefox problem. No self respecting web developer would ever make any site work only in one browser.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#65
post #5

I remember seeing this on TV and not understanding why microsoft was threatened with a fine if they ship IE by default on their products. Actually I still don't. Nobody ever stopped me from downloading another browser on windows, anyone who wants to do it will do it. So people did have a choice, they just didn't know they had it, and it's their problem, not microsoft's! Could someone explain this to me?

The EU just followed what the US courts said during Clinton. Clinton turned MS into a whipping boy. In retrospect, the courts were wrong. Netscape's profit model made no sense. People didn't want to pay for commodity software like a web browser. MS had every right to release a free one bundled with their platform. The web isn't some optional thing. A browser is part of every OS now. On top of it, the deal MS signed d…

And here we go again. The lack of knowing what a monopoly is and what it can and cannot do.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#66
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Opera, and before that the company behind Real Player, are anal like that and the EU went and agreed with them for some silly reason. They never did go after Apple, or Google / Android, or whatever for doing the exact same thing (pre-installing a media player / browser). I guess you could argue that Microsoft was singled out because their browser was an inherent component of their OS, but at the same time you…

They don't go after Apple, because bundling by itself is not prohibited, only if you have an overwhelming control of the market, which Windows had but iOS doesn't. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the EU started pressuring Google on the Android front in the near future - they're already talking about splitting up the company. (Again, not advocating, just explaining)

The EU has no control over splitting up Google or the ability to make that happen.

As far as Android goes, Google has no monopoly on the phone business.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#67

Why isn't Apple forced to the same deal with iOS? Not only do browsers not have the same prominence but they actually have to use WebView for rendering. Not to mention the other apps Apple refuses to approve because of "duplication".

Apple has never had a dominant position in desktop (or any other platform). That is actually part of their genius, because if they did, they would never be allowed to do all of the tight integration scenarios that they do.

I would never think that Apple intentionally limits themselves as you imply. As far as tight integration goes, there is nothing to stop any company from doing that. You misunderstand why Microsoft was hit so hard in the US and the EU.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... you know what a browser is (and you also know that there are alternatives). Most people don't. Most people don't open the browser, they "go to the Internet"; the browser is the "Internet". If a dominant player bundles their browser (as a component) in their OS, people become less and less aware of the browser as a possible and separate "product", and will of course use the dominant one as default - this is (a…

But the same is true for the calculator app, or the file manager. Granted, the web is used for a lot more than those... but I don't see why the browser is singled out as something needing special legal treatment.

Under anti-trust law, it is illegal for a company to use their monopoly power in one business as a competitive edge in another separate market. Therefore, the entire argument turns on two things: (1) was Windows a monopoly (2) was IE an integral part of Windows (hence not a product competing in another market).

Since Windows, for all intents and purposes, was a monopoly, a huge part of the discussion was about whether IE was an integral part of the operating system and therefore MS actions were not to be considered as competition in a different market but simply innovation in the existing OS market. Applications like Calculator had been part of operating systems for well over a decade by then and no-one was shipping any OS without one so there really was not a basis for comparison. Browsers, however, were completely new. Netscape, the first widely adopted consumer grade browser, seemed to be doing very well as a stand-alone application. From today's point of view, you could argue that no operating system would ever ship without a browser but that was not clear at the time. A similar idea would be, in say 20 years, BitCoin lockers becoming an integral part of operating systems. Not obvious today, at least not to anyone outside the niche community of enthusiasts.

Clearly, the courts got it wrong, in that browsers are part of the OS today (just as much as the Calculator). However, MS' ability to put Netscape out of business really did slow innovation down overall for a really long time. It took a long time for the market to correct itself and have the better products win. In fact, it took another monopolist (Google) trying to protect its business in another market to come in and accelerate the pace of innovation.

TL,DR: Courts shouldn't be in the position of deciding technology vision. Not because they do not have noble intentions but because they do not have the expertise.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#69
post #25

I'm almost equally scared of the Chrome dominance now as I was for IE6.

There should be no fear. IE6 held the web back. Chrome pushed it forward.

You're looking at things from the perspective of IE6 in 2014, not IE6 in 2001. Of course it seems shitty today, but that's because browsers from then are shitty compared to browsers today. It's only a victim of its success and the fact that rolling updates weren't a plausible model then.

If the contemporaneous Netscape 6 had been anywhere near as successful as IE6, you'd be cursing it now. Almost certainly more than you curse IE6, whose problems come not from the software itself but the fact that it was good enough for companies to lock it down as the standard and the fact it went for years without real competition. Netscape 6 didn't see this fate, because it was... outcompeted in the marketplace.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Microsoft was found to be a monopoly that abused its power over the marketplace to extend to other markets. Apple hasn't been in such a lawsuit, yet. I don't necessarily agree with such policies. For example the EU is thinking of breaking up Google because supposedly local players cannot compete, with inferior products in a market that Google created, but that's not mentioned. Of course, iOS does suck because…

Which market, exactly, did Google create? I can't think of anything Google did which was actually novel.

And that attitude is why they have much more money than you.
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