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Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

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Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#61
If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc.

There are A LOT of different programming/automation paradigms in the world, lots of different languages, declarative, functional, OOP, imperative, logic, etc etc, maybe some of these students just can't get the convoluted mutable and unsafe structure of a Python or Java program but they might grok and appreciate the safety and simplicity of ML/Haskell or the flexibility of Lisp, why would you turn them down in such a way or force them through a path they don't really need to go through?

During my first year of Bachelor Computer Science at University we had introduction to programming in Scheme. It was a mind-expanding experience to me, I already knew how to program in C, Java, C++ and C# with a bit of PHP/Javascript back then and I was much ahead most of my peers but still I sat at the computer, trying to earn this alien language to me, and luckily I was humble enough to force myself through it and adapt my mind to a different paradigm. I know for certain that a lot of my friends and colleagues who already knew how to program struggled hard on that exam and some had to re-take it the following year (Which was unfortunately changed to C++ and they managed to pass without troubles) simply because they didn't think Scheme was a "real" programming language or useful at all. It was just too different from their previous experience.

What's even more interesting, I know some people from that class who had never touched a programming language before and weren't particularly strong at math. Those people are the ones I recall enjoying the course the most, they found it the easiest among all the other courses we had and passed it with excellent grades. Simply because their mind was apparently better wired for such paradigm and they had no preconceptions or prejudices that prevented them from learning it properly.

So my bottom line is, what makes you think that some people might not just have a "differently wired" brain that makes them think more easily with a different non-imperative paradigm for programming?

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#62

Most programming jobs involve a lot of algebra. You have variables, you do arithmetic to those variables, you apply functions. It's not a great surprise to me that if you are good at high school algebra, you can probably learn how to program. You might not be a great programmer, but you'll be able to do it.

An algebra is just a system of rules.

Being good at number rules (school algebra) does not have much to do with being good at state rules (code algebra).

I'd say there's more correlation between functional programming and school algebra, if anything.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#63
post #18

The scatter plots don't show that strong a correlation. From the test questions, this isn't an "algebra test". It's a word problem decoding test. That's appropriate to programming, where you have to go from an informal specification of the problem to a formal one.

Yes it is algebra. Take second problem for instance. X + (x + 1) + (x+ 2) = 69. Solve for x.

Or just recognize that three consecutive numbers mean you divide by three and get the median of the three numbers. So 69/3-1, 69/3, 69/3+1, giving 22, 23, 24. No algebra involved, you just need to interpret the problem and build a tiny model in your head. Exactly like (some kinds of) programming.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very poor platform to base handing out algebra tests in interviews without establishing causality Why? It probably shouldn't be your only criterion, but if it has a high correlation, why wouldn't that be sufficient for handing out algebra tests? A high correlation corresponds to predictive power, even if it's not a causal relationship.

> A high correlation corresponds to predictive power... That's a bold statement. And one that is unfortunately often times false. Spurious correlations pop up everywhere. They can be notoriously bad at predicting things, and care must be taken not to take rash actions based on correlations that may have no actual clout. I'd say denying someone a job based off of an algebra test is sufficiently rash.

There's some correlations I love that illustrate this. You have "Lack of Pirates Causing Global Warming":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikaandersen/2012/03/23/true-fa...

and one I hadn't seen before, "Internet Explorer vs. Murder Rate",

http://chrisblattman.com/2013/05/24/correlation-versus-causa...

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Codeup CEO here. We actually did some brief testing with classical IQ tests and saw two problems: 1) IQ tests are really long and expensive, so difficult to implement 2) They didn't correlate with performance as well as algebra.

How do you know they didn't correlate with performance as well as algebra if they were too difficult to implement?

Because they tried them, then decided to not continue trying them because they didn't correlate as well and were difficult and expensive to implement.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#67
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the results are quantitatively weak? My first critique is just the small sample size with ~60 students and the tests, which appear to be different between the students.

The OP alluded to p-values, and I think this may be relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OL1RqHrZQ8 (In short: p-values are pretty much useless as an indicator of "this experiment can be reproduced".) Not that this necessarily refutes the original article, I just thought it might be relevant to discussion.

If you look in the methods, the experiment has been successfully reproduced twice after the initial trial with distinct cohorts of students.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know they didn't correlate with performance as well as algebra if they were too difficult to implement?

Because they tried them, then decided to not continue trying them because they didn't correlate as well and were difficult and expensive to implement.

There main test has 60 datapoints... how many tries do you think they made exactly before deciding they didn't correlate as well? Yes, IQ tests are expensive, but if you buy one test, the marginal cost of giving to an extra student is basically 0. I suspect it wasn't tested at all.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#69
post #61

If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc. There are A LOT of differen…

Ah, Scheme.. You must be an Indiana University grad.

Only school I know that uses Scheme that much.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#70
post #69
post #61

If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc. There are A LOT of differen…

Ah, Scheme.. You must be an Indiana University grad. Only school I know that uses Scheme that much.

Nope, sorry. Wrong side of the ocean.
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