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Don't panic and keep forking Debian

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Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.

Linux doesn't dominate the mobile environment. A very specific port of it, by Google, does.

Given that it's Google, that's hardly a compelling argument. They could've made Windows NT dominant if they'd so desired.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#62

See also: https://devuan.org/ as well as #debianfork and #devuan on IRC/freenode

That site does seem to show an odd disconnect, it seems to mention "init-freedom" alongside "...the first goal of removing systemd...". Surely true "init-freedom" would be to give the end user a choice between sysvinit, bsd init, sysmtemd, launchd, android's init, and so on.

Of course such true init-freedom would be near impossible. IMO people should just pick one, forking appropriately, and stop having such huge arguments over something the average user neither knows nor cares about. Just call Devuan the sysvinit fork of Debian and see how it goes...

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if that was different on Windows. Windows only works smoothly until it does not, and then you inevitably have to invoke some command-line tool you never heard of before and won't find any documentation for, or you have to edit some arcane registry key. Most people I know who use Windows at home either call "that guy" they know who knows his way around a computer, or they just reinstall their system (which is not s…

Hmm, I possibly would have agreed with you up until XP, when it was very very buggy and crash prone, but after that for the average user I really doubt that is the case. Thought I think we can agree to disagree depending on our respective experiences.

This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection.

For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage with debugging the occasional failure to boot, install etc., but that's because I have unusual priorities and good google-fu.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#64
post #23

Can someone TL;DR the problem with systemd?

systemd replaces a large number of startup and utility programs (specifically: sysvinit, pm-utils, inetd, acpid, syslog, watchdog, cron and atd). It also adds new daemons for logs, logins, locales, hostnames and a few other services. Most of this is a good thing. Faster. Newer code that is easier to maintain. Less reliance on shell scripts favoring declarative config files instead. But change has lots of difficulties…

This is a disingenuous presentation, though I would not expect any different from a systemd proponent, or opponent, for that matter. I wrote about the follies of systemd debates here: http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/

The speed benefits come at the trade-off of integration complexity potentially diminishing them: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations/

Whether or not it is easier to maintain cannot really be objectively gauged. As for declarative configuration, I will grant that. systemd is not the first to do this on Linux, though. eINIT was, though it used XML as its configuration language (similar to launchd and SMF in fact, though not as verbose). eINIT also had the benefit of a modular plugin-based architecture, a property also shared by finit and initng.

Change does not imply progress. This should go without saying.

No, a lot of objectors simply come from having different opinions on process management and general software architectures. That said, there is a contingent who did approve of the old approaches, yes. I dislike sysvinit, but I can understand them. Serial execution with a concretely defined boot sequence that is easy to reason about can be a benefit to some. In contrast, the systemd approach eschews any definition of "boot process" or "boot sequence" that can be specifically intervened in by order, instead taking the philosophy that specifying a unit's dependencies and relative order to a target/synchronization point is enough, the rest being handled by internal transaction and job semantics.

systemd most certainly is monolithic. It is also modular, but to a partial extent. System generators and various auxiliaries (journald, but also some of the more minor tooling) cannot be disabled at build time. Certain things like Plymouth communication are also explicitly done at runtime.

launchd as a whole is still a much smaller system than systemd, at the end of the day. This is because launchd has a concretely defined purpose. systemd has little in the way of that other than vague descriptions that ultimately amount to being "as much as possible between the kernel and base libs+utils".

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#65
On the one hand, this seems wildly misguided; the Debian distribution for people who don't want to run systemd is still just Debian, and that'll remain the case through at least jessie, and for as long as people continue putting effort into keeping it working. So it's sad that the effort going into this fork doesn't instead go into maintaining the necessary infrastructure in Debian. I'm sure the maintainers of systemd-shim and cgmanager would welcome additional contributors.

On the other hand, perhaps this will provide a more useful outlet for the set of people who keep claiming they'd use a fork if available, so that they can actually go use one and stop griping on Debian mailing lists.

Nope, sorry, couldn't keep a straight face while saying that.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you mean. But we both know these are very different things. For most people, their tablet and phone works absolutely seemlessly, with drivers, apps, downloads etc just working they way they want them to. It just never works that way on the Desktop unfort. I know loads of "average" people who have tried to use MINT/Ubuntu but eventually a big chunk end up reaching for Redmond after they spend too l…

It doesn't matter; there are literally more phones and tablets than there are desktop/laptop computers. Desktop/laptop is irrelevant in the future. Chromebook and hybrid tablets are slowly eating into the "laptop" market. Many people will never buy a laptop because their tablet or phone does what they need. I know a lot of people who go weeks between opening their computer, but live on their phone and tablet. Desktop…

I take issue with your hypothesis.

Tablets and chromebooks have already been around for several years. Why do I still use a desktop for work? Why don't I just ssh everywhere from my eyepad?

Because they suck at making me productive.

Desktops and actual laptops are not going anywhere, because they run fully featured OSs that people can contribute to, not some nasty walled garden of corporate shrink-wrapped ToS turds and ignored pull requests (if you're so lucky to even come within barfing distance of a FOSS component on lobotomy-hardware).

Look, IBM started predicting the death of the desktop, what, 20 years ago? 30? It's not going to happen. Then laptops came around. They're gonna kill the desktop! O noes! Not gonna happen. Ultrabooks are gonna kill laptops! Yeah, maybe.. Depends on how much they wind up resembling good laptops.

Starts to sound pretty familiar after a while.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost isn't zero, but it's proportional to how many other people are likely to have encountered the same pain point. If you run a desktop OS with 5% of Windows' market share, you're going to have more trouble finding help (or at least sympathy) when things go south. Also, as an ISV or IHV, if your app or device fails to work with Windows, it's a DEFCON-1 emergency. If it fails to work with one of 5,000 random obsc…

Some hardware is well supported by Linux, some is not. Same with Windows, though most vendors support Windows if they support anything on x86. But it's not always that clear-cut. Particularly on laptops, if you diverge from the OEM-included drivers you can have issues. I had a Dell laptop that I obtained second-hand, and I reinstalled my employer's stock Windows 7 ISO on it. It randomly blue-screened even with the la…

Personally, I find suspend/resume to be critical functions without which a laptop is useless.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#68
From their manifesto: Dear Init-Freedom lovers, The Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you. Does this group expect to be taken seriously? Read Cory Doctorow's "When Sysadmins Ruled the Earth" and get over it.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#70
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like someone who's used a variety of init systems, so I have some questions: 1. Why is systemd considered "un-unix"? 2. Why is sysv considered to "follow unix"? 3. Can you provide or point to some explanations on the ideologies that motivate the difference of opinions regarding sysv/systemd? 4. Really, can someone provide some context and history for all this?

Those are good questions, but answering them won't fit in a comment. It takes more like a book. One of the best books on the Unix philosophy is "The Art of Unix Programming", which is available for free. (I recommend getting a hard copy and reading the whole thing.) http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ Other books include The Unix Programming Environment by Pike et. al., though it's less explicit about the ph…

Eric Raymond is not worth taking seriously except as a bad example.

That aside, poking around I found this: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfacePo... which looks like reasonably well-defined interfaces?

Also not really seeing the problem with a binary protocol, works fine for tcp/ip.

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