When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier? • Hacker News Board

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#61

Post by spindritf » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:06 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out

How important is it to speak German?

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#62

Post by seanstickle » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:06 PM UTC

evincarofautumn wrote: post #55

seanstickle wrote: post #38

I favor something more like a Results-Only Work Environment ( http://gorowe.com/pages/rowe-standards ), where the focus is on the results and not on how many hours are worked. Too many companies (even startups) are conservatives and traditionalists in the sense of thinking that work needs to be done within certain hours and at a certain place, even when those are not drivers of the results. I'm hired to deliver certa…

Forcing someone to punch a clock is definitely misguided. But work hours are a useful proxy for effort spent, provided you have good estimation of your pace. And being in the office not only puts you in a “work” frame of mind, but also promotes serendipitous sharing with your coworkers—swapping productivity tips, planning features, explaining systems. So even in a quite results-oriented workplace, with almost total f…

Work hours are certainly a good proxy for effort spent. But companies don't (or shouldn't) pay for effort, they pay for results.

Take 2 people: one a talented auto mechanic, one is me (not mechanically talented). Give us both the task of changing all 4 tires on a car.

I take 8 hours. The mechanic takes 1. (Made up numbers, but you get the idea).

8 hours reflect my effort, sure. But you want the tires changed. If the mechanic finishes in 1 hour, great. That's what you're paying for — changed tires. Not hours.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#63

Post by mathattack » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:07 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #41

mathattack wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I previously worked for a private French firm with ~700 Paris based employees. They worked very long hours, even by US standards. I thought, "If it can't be mandated here, it can't be mandated anywhere."

Hmm, that's quite surprising; in Ireland, at least for large companies, it is generally enforced fairly well (though there's an ongoing problem with the hospitals; it turns out there aren't really enough doctors if you can't make them do overtime), and France is generally stricter about this stuff than us. Were these normal employees or some sort of weird contractor arrangement?

Normal employees. We had an Irish subsidiary too, though I never visited and saw the hours they put in. My impression is they were very industrious. (Though industrious doesn't have to connect with hours)

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#64

Post by muyuu » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

qwerta wrote: post #52

muyuu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cannot "really enforce" one policy why do you think you will be able to "really enforce" the other? When enforcement doesn't work rules are guidelines.

Some rules "enforce themselfs". Unpaid overtime brings positive motivation for emplyers to broken. Paid overtime is negative motivations, and people are more likely to report it and sue due to lost money.

And they don't sue for the free hours worked on Sunday because...?

As I said, you start by creating a culture where rules are enforced, then work from there.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#65

Post by foxpc » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

I'd think that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to move to because of all the prices. Starting to live there should be VERY expensive. I wonder if anyone's had to go through that experience?

P.S. I'd love to live in Switzerland, being in the somewhat-neutral land where you're not that threatened by Russia or other things that might make your days miserable :|

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#66

Post by SonicSoul » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #30

dirktheman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here at the number 4 on the list... I work 4 days a week, my wife works 3. My employer also works 4. My day off is awesome, and accounts for a lot of my happiness. And the happiness of my kids, I'm sure! US may be the leading in economy, but we (Northern and Western Europe) are way ahead of you guys when it comes to a healthy work-life balance...

Isn't it all very individual though? What if someone derives happiness and satisfaction from working? Should they be prohibited from working more than a set number of days/hours per week?

I agree. most of my long hours are self imposed. Often time it's fun to finish things, or take longer to do something in the best way possible (vs rush through during normal hours), and have a certain number of accomplishments in a year.

However I understand that other people may feel pressure to do the same even thought they value family life more. Some employers probably don't do a great job in encouraging the family life and set out goals that require extra hours to complete (over 40 hr work week), which is what such a regulation may aim to alleviate. In practice I think it will cause more harm by dabbling in company culture.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#67

Post by notahacker » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #11

Sumaso wrote: post #2

Reading the abstract from the actual paper itself seems to indicate that people were not more or less satisfied with their jobs after the reduction of working hours. "While satisfaction with working hours increased, reductions had no impact on job and life satisfaction." It seems people did actually like the reduced number of hours, they didn't say that they liked their job more, or found more satisfaction in their l…

This sounds like it might relate to the "hedonic treadmill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill Brickman, Coates, and Janoff-Bulman were among the first to investigate the hedonic treadmill in their 1978 study, “Lottery Winners and Accident Victims: Is Happiness Relative?”. Lottery winners and paraplegics were compared to a control group and as predicted, comparison (with past experiences and current comm…

Of course a significant contributory factor behind the "hedonic treadmill" is that subjective indications of happiness as survey responses are essentially a proxy for the person's actual emotional state (which of course is largely unmeasurable mental activity). That is of course assuming that happiness actually is a tendency towards certain mental states. People's recollection of how they actually felt during a prior time period is imperfect, and subjective expectations for their maximum possible level of mental satisfaction are subject to revision. Its possible for survey participants to sincerely believe their overall satisfaction is still six out of ten on some crude scale whilst every single measurable or unmeasurable aspect of their mental well being has actually moved in the right direction (fewer anxiety symptoms, higher dopamine levels, less brain activity devoted to sources of irritation, higher confidence etc.)

Of course its also quite possible for participants to forget prior survey responses resulting in participants assigning same cardinal score to their happiness when surveyed in two different time periods, yet being able to unequivocally agree that their happiness (or indeed satisfaction with work) is a fair bit higher in period B than period A.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#68

Post by evincarofautumn » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

seanstickle wrote: post #62

evincarofautumn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing someone to punch a clock is definitely misguided. But work hours are a useful proxy for effort spent, provided you have good estimation of your pace. And being in the office not only puts you in a “work” frame of mind, but also promotes serendipitous sharing with your coworkers—swapping productivity tips, planning features, explaining systems. So even in a quite results-oriented workplace, with almost total f…

Work hours are certainly a good proxy for effort spent. But companies don't (or shouldn't) pay for effort, they pay for results. Take 2 people: one a talented auto mechanic, one is me (not mechanically talented). Give us both the task of changing all 4 tires on a car. I take 8 hours. The mechanic takes 1. (Made up numbers, but you get the idea). 8 hours reflect my effort, sure. But you want the tires changed. If the…

Sure, but I would be equally happy to pay either of you by the hour if you set your rates according to your respective skill levels, because the price would come out the same. Also there is an implicit expectation of reasonable competence.

For example, hourly pay is quite reasonable in jobs that just need a competent body to fill a shift—i.e., where the only “result” you want is “the shift gets filled”. When I was working in a kitchen, I put in the same four-hour shift every time I went into work—prep, serve, clean. If I worked n shifts a week, I got kn dollars that week, fair and square.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#69

Post by OSButler » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #39

"Imposed" should be in gigantic scare quotes. Many Korean businesses, big and small, routinely make employees work overtime without payment. Maybe we should ask the question after we do have an enforced limit.

The stories I've heard from friends & family working and living in Korea reflect exactly that.

There's not just uncompensated overtime, but you're also expected to join up when it comes to company retreats. So, not only do you give away 10+ hours every day to the company, but then you'll also be incorporated over the weekend, due to some company outing.

I also doubt that any imposed limit would actually be enforced or tolerated by the employer. The unpaid hours go directly into the prices, so some businesses wouldn't be able to compete anymore if they suddenly had to pay for that overtime.

The passion my friends put into their work is admirable and nothing short of impressive, but I can't help but notice that there's not much time left for family, or anything else besides work for that matter.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#70

Post by SonicSoul » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #43

seanstickle wrote: post #38

I favor something more like a Results-Only Work Environment ( http://gorowe.com/pages/rowe-standards ), where the focus is on the results and not on how many hours are worked. Too many companies (even startups) are conservatives and traditionalists in the sense of thinking that work needs to be done within certain hours and at a certain place, even when those are not drivers of the results. I'm hired to deliver certa…

I agree with you personally, but to play the devil's advocate a little: > If it takes me 10 hours or 40 hours to deliver those results, that's up to me, as long as the deadlines are hit and the deliverables are high-quality. If you are able to consistently deliver the required results in only 10 hours of "work", it's clear that any organization will slowly ramp up the required results more and more until you are work…

this sort of give/learn/take averaged over multiple employees could redefine how much can be done in a week, or what the average rate per hour is, but in the end the time would be spent more efficiently. I believe that having a set number of hours will grow the workload to meet those hours, and that's inefficient in most cases. No studies to back this up, but I've worked in a lot of places, and the percentage of people that are actually trying to get done as much as they can [in a working day] is very low.