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Gravitricity

gravitricity.com

61–70 of 222 posts

Re: Gravitricity

#61
Let's do out the math on this...

A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hole.

Now, you can't fill the whole tunnel perfectly or the air can't escape, so our total volume of mass will be about 25 m^2 * 1000 m = 25,000 cubic meters. If the weights are made from lead, that's a total mass of ~280,000 tons or 2.8 * 10^8 kg, at a mean depth of 500 meters, so our total potential energy is 2.8 * 10^8 * 500 * 9.8 = 1.4 TJ, or 1.3 TJ net assuming you get the efficiency they claim. 1 kWh is 3.6 MJ, so you can store ~400,000 kWh at $100M capital cost (ignoring for the moment the cost of weights, generators, etc.), which is $250 per kWh installed capacity.

That's pretty good... but you also have to pay for weights and a bunch of other stuff. Bulk lead costs about $2,000 per ton on the current market, so that's $560M for the weights, which puts you back in the $2,000 per kWh range which doesn't beat lithium batteries. So you have to use iron or some cheaper material... but then you don't have as much storage capacity because the density is lower, and even with iron you're paying $400 per metric ton or $80M for all your weights. So this isn't obviously impossible like Solar Roadways, but even in the best case it won't make storage dramatically cheaper.

Re: Gravitricity

#62

Let's do out the math on this... A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hol…

One major advantage this would have over chemical batteries (Lithium-Ion or otherwise) is that it should allow for many, many more cycles. You would have to replace cables and motors and such at some point, but the expensive components - the hole and the weight - should last near-indefinitely.

It certainly appears more expensive than pumped storage, but as they say, it doesn't require a convenient mountain and lake. That makes for much more flexibility in placement, and the closer you can place the storage to the demand, the less is wasted in transmission, and the less storage you ultimately need. That said, the pumped heat storage design[1] that hit the homepage yesterday would have all those same advantages, and although the efficiency would be slightly lower, it looks much cheaper to build.

[1]: http://www.windpowerengineering.com/featured/business-news-p...

Re: Gravitricity

#63

Let's do out the math on this... A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hol…

wouldn't this last a lot longer than lithium batteries?

Re: Gravitricity

#65

Good thing HN wasn't around durning the development of most of humanity's great inventions. "So your telling me I'm going to have to hold my food over this fire for 15 minutes before I eat it? No thank you, I'd stick with my raw meat."

The majority of humanity's great inventions didn't have basic physics saying "this isn't brilliant" long before a prototype got built. Most of humanity's great inventions were things that were difficult because human beings thought they were difficult, or complicated or intricate or whatever.

On their webpage they say " The biggest single cost is the hole, but it is expected that firstly this will have a very long life and secondly, as the technology rolls out, the costs of drilling will reduce significantly. So the economics will improve in time."

Drilling will not get cheaper without a serious reform of the law, and that's unlikely to happen. There are two primary kinds of drillers; water and energy. Folks involved in water have VERY protective rules in all states. The reasons are 1. good lobbying and 2. if you screw up you destroy the water supply.

Energy drilling is no cheaper. Drilling rigs are huge machines that aren't moved easily and cost at least $50k a day on land and $500k a day for seagoing. That's before you pay another $20k per day in staff and god knows how much for fuel for everything; a rig will produce at least 5MW of power.

Could they custom build a rig just for drilling for their idea and would that work? Sure. But they'd probably spend several million and then you've got to have it running 24/7 for it to pay off.

The regulatory hurdle is going to be non-trivial as well. They're going to case it which helps. But the casing would probably need to be cemented in place which is a non-trivial cost as well. And convincing lawmakers that this doesn't quack like some other kind of well is going to be no easy feat.

Re: Gravitricity

#66
I think the coolest thing about this concept (for me) is viewing it as a "whole-system" energy storage procedure.

It is effectively 100% renewable, 100% distributable, using 100% commodities (ie: rocks in a hole).

As a thought experiment: if on average you can meet 110%+ daily power expenditure captured from renewables (solar, wind, whatever), and store it by lifting up these weights, then you've broken into the "free energy" loop.

More specifically, don't look at the power input or storage, look at the power output / usage. If your input + storage capacity is greater than your output rate then energy effectively becomes "free forever".

Simulate it on a small scale. Get a pinwheel to run a small motor that winds something up. Attach a small LED to it that you only run occasionally. Basically, just so long as you have a really small output draw compared to your input rate and storage capacity, this "battery" will give you energy when you want it with minimal maintenance costs and minimal consumables.

Re: Gravitricity

#67

Let's do out the math on this... A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hol…

If the capacity is proportional to the depth of the tunnel and the mass of the weights, and the maximal mass of the weights is proportional to the depth of the tunnel, then wouldn't the capacity grow quadratically with the invested money?

Edit: You assumed that they can both fill most of the tunnel up with lead and move that up or down 500 meters. The volume that they can fill with that is thus only half of what you say.

Re: Gravitricity

#68

Let's do out the math on this... A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hol…

One major advantage this would have over chemical batteries (Lithium-Ion or otherwise) is that it should allow for many, many more cycles. You would have to replace cables and motors and such at some point, but the expensive components - the hole and the weight - should last near-indefinitely. It certainly appears more expensive than pumped storage, but as they say, it doesn't require a convenient mountain and lake.…

Now that you mentioned a mountain... Why again is a hole needed?

Edit: I mean that an inclined rail could be just as good as a hole, and way cheaper.

Re: Gravitricity

#69

Let's do out the math on this... A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hol…

Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal

I would have thought that a better comparison would be oil wells, which cost about $500 per ft of depth, or $1.5M per km.

our total volume of mass will be about 25 m^2 1000 m = 25,000 cubic meters. If the weights are made from lead, that's a total mass of ~280,000 tons*

You seem to be assuming that the entire depth of the shaft is filled by weights. My impression was that the weight was much smaller than the shaft it fell down.

Re: Gravitricity

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One major advantage this would have over chemical batteries (Lithium-Ion or otherwise) is that it should allow for many, many more cycles. You would have to replace cables and motors and such at some point, but the expensive components - the hole and the weight - should last near-indefinitely. It certainly appears more expensive than pumped storage, but as they say, it doesn't require a convenient mountain and lake.…

Now that you mentioned a mountain... Why again is a hole needed? Edit: I mean that an inclined rail could be just as good as a hole, and way cheaper.

For the gravity-based design, you need to lower a weight directly up and down in a controlled manner (ie without swinging etc.) That basically requires a shaft in the ground. If you have a mountain and a lake handy, pumped storage would be more economical, but the advantage of this design - as I understand it - is it can be deployed in places that don't have those things.
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