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VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

andreasgal.com

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the audio case is arguably far more interesting (enough major companies have shipped Vorbis and Speex that it is likely anyone holding a patent would've sued someone by now). One may speculate that by the time the iTunes Music Store launched (2003) they felt locked in to the set of codecs the iPod (launched 2001) supported natively (the CPU in it is weak, and while it is powerful enough for a modern, highly opt…

Well, what happened in the past doesn't really explain why they still refuse to support them today. I really hope mandatory status of Opus in WebRTC will push it into QuickTime framework and it will mean implicit support by Apple everywhere.

[deleted]

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#62

I thought this is vp9/h265 era already?

Encoders for vp9 and h265 have a long way to go before they can compete for real-time usage, such as WebRTC.

because they lack hardware implementation?

I think vp8 doesn't have too many hardware implementation either. h264's situation is better though.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#63
post #58
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy seems to ignore that FLAC is literally the lossless format that is used everywhere - except on Apple devices, and has not and never had patent concerns. On top of that, ALAC is clearly based on FLAC but has effectively been worsened. It is pure and 100% literal NIH. The same can't be said for JPEG2000. Not even close. Nobody's complaining Apple doesn't support actual MPEG ALS, for example.

Supported everywhere != used everywhere. In my experience, extremely few people use FLAC, because there's almost never a reason to care about having a lossless audio codec. I'm pretty sure I've seen FLAC mentioned by people coming up with reasons to complain about Apple several orders of magnitude more times than I've actually seen FLAC in the wild.

> Supported everywhere != used everywhere. In my experience, extremely few people use FLAC,

Way more than ALAC. Music in FLAC is provided by many music services and digital stores. Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere.

> because there's almost never a reason to care about having a lossless audio codec.

That's utter nonsense. Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for the source, otherwise you'll degrade your quality. For example if tomorrow some state of the art lossy codec comes out which reduces size / computational complexity of decoding (such as Opus for instance), you can reencode your audio library in it for usage in mobile devices and so on. But without lossless sources that won't be an option. Lossless codecs are functionally equivalent to audio CDs. Lossy ones are not.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#64
post #60
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They refuse to support them today because there's no benefit in doing so . Supporting codecs they're not supporting today takes both non-trivial engineering resources, but may expose them to patent risk depending on the codec in question. And pretty much by definition, the people who use these codecs aren't Apple customers anyway. You seem to be arguing with the assumption that Apple could support these codecs effect…

> They refuse to support them today because there's no benefit in doing so That's nonsense. Clear benefit is supporting codecs which their users can encounter without forcing them to reencode to anything else. For instance, you buy some music in FLAC and can use it, rather than reencoding it first. I.e. interoperability and treating users well, rather than being jerks. Clearly for Apple "benefit" means screwing users…

> Clear benefit is supporting codecs which their users can encounter without forcing them to reencode to anything else.

That assumes their users actually ever encounter such music. I fully expect that significantly less than 1% of Apple customers ever encounter FLAC music, and those that do, do so infrequently and with other options made available as well. Personally, every time I've seen FLAC as an option, it's been one of a set of options (typically including MP3 and AAC, and often even including ALAC).

> Clearly for Apple "benefit" means screwing users and degrading interoperability.

Bullshit. Nobody is being screwed here. Anyone who gets FLAC music is choosing to do so, and it's pretty trivial to reencode. And there is absolutely no interoperability issue here. FLAC is not a codec chosen for portability reasons; very few people have any reason to be using lossless audio to begin with.

> False pretenses to hide real intentions - retaining lock in and reducing interoperability, which were always Apple's notable goals

Bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. Apple was at the forefront of pushing to remove DRM on music, and you're trying to accuse them of lock-in? Either you're horribly deluded, or you have your own anti-Apple agenda that you're trying to push here. Either way, you're pulling this argument from thin air and it is entirely incorrect.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#65
post #63
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supported everywhere != used everywhere. In my experience, extremely few people use FLAC, because there's almost never a reason to care about having a lossless audio codec. I'm pretty sure I've seen FLAC mentioned by people coming up with reasons to complain about Apple several orders of magnitude more times than I've actually seen FLAC in the wild.

> Supported everywhere != used everywhere. In my experience, extremely few people use FLAC, Way more than ALAC. Music in FLAC is provided by many music services and digital stores. Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere. > because there's almost never a reason to care about having a lossless audio codec. That's utter nonsense. Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for…

> Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere.

Because almost nobody has any reason to want lossless music. Anyone buying music in FLAC is deluding themselves if they think they can hear a difference between that and a properly encoded lossy codec like MP3 or AAC.

> Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for the source, otherwise you'll degrade your quality.

True. But this is an issue for so few people as to be effectively zero. Extremely few people actually do this sort of thing, and I would wager that most of them aren't Apple customers to begin with.

If Apple had infinite engineering resources, then yes, it would be nice to solve every single problem for every person, everywhere. But Apple's engineering resources are not infinite, and it would be a flagrant waste of those resources to spend them on issues like this that impact effectively zero Apple users.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#66
post #64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refuse to support them today because there's no benefit in doing so That's nonsense. Clear benefit is supporting codecs which their users can encounter without forcing them to reencode to anything else. For instance, you buy some music in FLAC and can use it, rather than reencoding it first. I.e. interoperability and treating users well, rather than being jerks. Clearly for Apple "benefit" means screwing users…

> Clear benefit is supporting codecs which their users can encounter without forcing them to reencode to anything else. That assumes their users actually ever encounter such music. I fully expect that significantly less than 1% of Apple customers ever encounter FLAC music, and those that do, do so infrequently and with other options made available as well. Personally, every time I've seen FLAC as an option, it's been…

> That assumes their users actually ever encounter such music.

Not "their users", any users. FLAC is the only lossless format that's being actively used commercially (and not commercially) by various services and stores. So, their users encounter it as well when they deal with lossless audio.

> Anyone who gets FLAC music is choosing to do so

Yep, since it's the only practical lossless format offered as above. And Apple chose not to support it to screw their users.

> and it's pretty trivial to reencode.

Yep, it's not hard to reencode. Supporting it isn't hard either - all decent players do it (like VLC and etc.). Apple's one isn't decent though, it's crippled by design, with excuse that "it's easy to reencode". User friendliness just shines there.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#67
post #65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Supported everywhere != used everywhere. In my experience, extremely few people use FLAC, Way more than ALAC. Music in FLAC is provided by many music services and digital stores. Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere. > because there's almost never a reason to care about having a lossless audio codec. That's utter nonsense. Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for…

> Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere. Because almost nobody has any reason to want lossless music. Anyone buying music in FLAC is deluding themselves if they think they can hear a difference between that and a properly encoded lossy codec like MP3 or AAC. > Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for the source, otherwise you'll degrade your quality. True. But this i…

> True. But this is an issue for so few people as to be effectively zero.

Why not? Keeping a master copy can be an issue for any user who cares about quality. You can see it as keeping a master tape, so any subsequent copy (=lossy encoding) won't degrade the quality too far.

> and I would wager that most of them aren't Apple customers to begin with.

Why so? Is it some kind of stereotype that Apple customers don't care about quality of music or can't be audiophiles?

> If Apple had infinite engineering resources, then yes, it would be nice to solve every single problem for every person, everywhere.

Adding FLAC support in their QuickTime framework is trivial. Excusing the lack of support for it by lack of engineering resources in Apple should be just embarrassing for them, not even to mention that it simply would be a lie.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#68
post #57
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And even ALAC is now open source and royalty-free. Nothing stops them from supporting FLAC as well except their nasty attitude in general. FLAC is actually used by many services which sell music, unlike ALAC. AAC is nowhere patent free.

I can't decide if you genuinely believe that Apple is deciding not to spend resources supporting FLAC because you think they have a "nasty attitude", or if you're deliberately misrepresenting the reasons that lead to such a decision. Supporting FLAC requires investing engineer resources in doing this, and possibly legal resources as well. It's only something that Apple would do if there's any benefit to them doing it…

> Supporting FLAC requires investing engineer resources in doing this, and possibly legal resources as well. It's only something that Apple would do if there's any benefit to them doing it.

FLAC is patent free and actively used (commercially including) by many parties big and small, so this legal FUD is totally unconvincing. ALAC isn't supported in hardware any better than FLAC, so that argument completely misses the point.

> Apple's already had their own lossless compression codec (ALAC) for over a decade

And for over than a decade "couldn't find resources" to support FLAC which is actually used unlike ALAC. Poor, poor Apple.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#69
post #66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clear benefit is supporting codecs which their users can encounter without forcing them to reencode to anything else. That assumes their users actually ever encounter such music. I fully expect that significantly less than 1% of Apple customers ever encounter FLAC music, and those that do, do so infrequently and with other options made available as well. Personally, every time I've seen FLAC as an option, it's been…

> That assumes their users actually ever encounter such music. Not "their users", any users. FLAC is the only lossless format that's being actively used commercially (and not commercially) by various services and stores. So, their users encounter it as well when they deal with lossless audio. > Anyone who gets FLAC music is choosing to do so Yep, since it's the only practical lossless format offered as above. And App…

A cynic would point out that anyone who is purchasing FLAC music is, by definition, not purchasing from the iTunes Store, so there is very little business reason to facilitate this behavior.

A more practical person would say that nearly everyone who does purchase from an alternative store doesn't want FLAC anyway (or at least, shouldn't want it, though it would not surprise me to see a lot of people who opt for FLAC do so because they think it's a good thing when they really get no benefit from doing so). Very few people ever need to reencode their music these days. Back when MP3 was new and newer encoders kept coming out that got better results, it made more sense, but these days high bit-rate MP3 or medium bit-rate AAC is more than sufficient for effectively all personal uses. Given that, users who purchase from alternative stores would be best served by picking a lossy format that is compatible with their software/hardware (e.g. for Apple users that's AAC if it's provided, or MP3 if not).

For those vanishingly small number of people who have an actual use for FLAC and who wish to play their music on Apple products, it's not very difficult to transcode it to a format that is supported by Apple products. They should be transcoding it for personal usage anyway, because there's no need to be carrying around unnecessarily large files on mobile devices or on laptops. Keep the FLAC somewhere safe if you think you'll actually need it again, and transcode to a more appropriate format. Or better yet, just download the appropriate format to begin with (most independent stores I've seen that offer multiple formats let you download in all the formats you want to instead of forcing you to pick).

> Yep, since it's the only practical lossless format offered as above. And Apple chose not to support it to screw their users.

You do realize that your repeated assertions that Apple is intentionally choosing not to support FLAC out of some personified desire to screw their users is ridiculous, right? I don't know why you keep claiming this. Even if you want to personify Apple instead of treating them like a company that makes decisions that are in the best interests of the company, it's absurd to claim Apple is trying to screw its users.

But beyond that, you keep claiming FLAC is "the only practical lossless format". And yet by your own argument it's impractical, since it's not supported on the hardware/software combination you want.

Re: VP8 and H.264 to both become mandatory for WebRTC

#70
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Music in ALAC? I never saw it being sold anywhere. Because almost nobody has any reason to want lossless music. Anyone buying music in FLAC is deluding themselves if they think they can hear a difference between that and a properly encoded lossy codec like MP3 or AAC. > Any time you want to reencode your music, you care about the lossless codec for the source, otherwise you'll degrade your quality. True. But this i…

> True. But this is an issue for so few people as to be effectively zero. Why not? Keeping a master copy can be an issue for any user who cares about quality. You can see it as keeping a master tape, so any subsequent copy (=lossy encoding) won't degrade the quality too far. > and I would wager that most of them aren't Apple customers to begin with. Why so? Is it some kind of stereotype that Apple customers don't car…

> You can see it as keeping a master tape, so any subsequent copy (=lossy encoding) won't degrade the quality too far.

Yes, the concept is not what's at question here. What's at question is how many people actually are inclined to ever care about something like this, and the answer is almost nobody. Very few people care to reencode their audio files.

> Why so? Is it some kind of stereotype that Apple customers don't care about quality of music or can't be audiophiles?

Why do you leap to the worst possible assumption about everything Apple? You seem to have an extremely strong bias here.

Most Apple customers probably buy their music from the iTunes Music Store and don't ever think about reencoding it, because there's no point. Similarly, most people who buy music from other stores get it already encoded in a lossy format appropriate for listening to. Far and away the biggest reason to be reencoding is when ripping music from an audio CD, and iTunes already supports that. Once ripped, there's no reason to go about reencoding it again, as we've already long since passed the point where people can discern a difference.

The only really legitimate reason to be caring about this sort of thing is when you're doing professional audio work (as opposed to mucking about with music for personal listening), and people who are doing professional audio work aren't using iTunes for this work anyway so that's pretty irrelevant.

> Adding FLAC support in their QuickTime framework is trivial.

That's absurdly naive. It would be practically criminal negligence for Apple to download the latest libFLAC and drop it into the OS they ship to millions of customers without spending significant engineering resources reviewing the code. Then there's the ongoing maintenance burden, of dealing with upstream changes, local bugfixes, and just plain integration with the rest of the QuickTime stack. And if iTunes supports it, then iPhones and iPads really ought to support it if it's at all possible, and that's a really large engineering effort to do so in a way that's power-efficient, if that's even possible (given the lack of hardware support for it).

And that's just what comes to mind off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more that would be involved as well.

And for what? What would you gain from having iTunes support FLAC? You should be transcoding into some other format already for actual use in listening, because there's no point in carrying around large lossless files for personal listening, especially if you use any mobile devices (or laptops). You don't need iTunes to support FLAC just to transcode it, you already have options there, and as long as you aren't transcoding to Ogg Vorbis then your resulting file should work in iTunes (and on iPhones and iPads).

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