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How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

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Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#61

Post by zingar »

danielbarla wrote: post #50
zingar wrote: post #19

Interesting. To live here in South Africa on those numbers you'd have to make similar sacrifices, in an economy which I normally regard as 10x cheaper than (what I've heard of) SF. Some questions: 1. When I hear people on this site talking about "low" startup engineer wages in SF, the numbers I see are 60k - 80k / year. But this article makes that number look like glorious riches by comparison. Living in the dining r…

I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I think the 10x comparison is a bit off (I'm also in SA). On paper SA is supposed to have a purchasing power parity of around -50 to -60% [1] (so, things are on average that much cheaper here than in the USA). Of course, SF is significantly more expensive than other places in the USA (although typically not more than a factor of say, 1.5 to 2x). If we add all this up,…

Thanks. I'm in Cape Town and I was thinking of rent numbers - having heard that a room in a shared house might rent for 2000$/mo in SF vs. say R2000 on the cheap end here.

That rent number isn't based on fancy accoms but since I've been in the southern suburbs all my life some would say that I'm living an entitled lifestyle (CT Southern Suburbs =~ JHB Northern Suburbs). You could obviously halve your rent in some areas but then you'd be living (at least in CT) in places with serious infrastructure issues, cable theft etc.

But I'm interested... from your background and expectations of standard of living, do you think you could make do with R5000 - R6000 /mo in SA? The same restrictions probably apply, share a room, no dependents, cheapest Net access and forget about buying new equipment on that budget.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#62

Post by zingar »

schoolixer wrote: post #36
zingar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this site works (had this account for years but only commented a few times). It looks like my comment was downvoted, can someone explain why? Is thinking about stereotypes offensive? Or it was deemed irrelevant?

In short, it s because you seem to assume that the description of the neighborhood given was also the reason why it is cheaper. (It isn't, the reason is because its way the away from the center of town with almost nothing but residential areas). Generally stereotypes as a concept are considered inherently pejorative in the USA. Secondly, your inference that people are avoiding the neighborhood is because of the local…

Ok fair enough. My assumption was that real estate everywhere in SF was in crazy demand and that if there wasn't demand that meant there was something wrong with the place. There was also OP's comment about being "alone" in the neighbourhood, but maybe I misunderstood.

I do think separating culture from race is dodging half the conversation, but I can't argue with your observation that this is the reality of how most people in the area think. Thanks for the feedback.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#63

Post by disputin »

danielbarla wrote: post #50
zingar wrote: post #19

Interesting. To live here in South Africa on those numbers you'd have to make similar sacrifices, in an economy which I normally regard as 10x cheaper than (what I've heard of) SF. Some questions: 1. When I hear people on this site talking about "low" startup engineer wages in SF, the numbers I see are 60k - 80k / year. But this article makes that number look like glorious riches by comparison. Living in the dining r…

I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I think the 10x comparison is a bit off (I'm also in SA). On paper SA is supposed to have a purchasing power parity of around -50 to -60% [1] (so, things are on average that much cheaper here than in the USA). Of course, SF is significantly more expensive than other places in the USA (although typically not more than a factor of say, 1.5 to 2x). If we add all this up,…

"cars, having houses which are usually > 200 m2, come with swimming pools, have large gardens"

It's a sunny country with a tendency to be outdoors, a lot of space, limited public transport, and a colonial history (another conversation). If you're from a cold ex-soviet country then there is no comparison - Australia far better.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#64

Post by junto »

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering.

That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 years so maybe I just don't get it.

Do these talented people really need to be in an office in Silicon Valley, sitting opposite you, tapping away on their keybosrds with their headphones on to as productive or better than me or you?

Obviously the data suggests that the most successful companies are there, but is that not just cause and effect?

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#65

Post by dpe82 »

junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

When you're in the ideation stage of a startup it's hugely valuable to be in the same room arguing over the same whiteboard. There's no higher bandwidth way of communicating, learning and building consensus. Once you've decided what to do remote can totally work, but most startups are in that first phase for quite a while.

There are lots of other reasons for being in the bay area in particular, but that's the primary reason for founders being in the same physical location.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#66

Post by edraferi »

schoolixer wrote: post #36
zingar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this site works (had this account for years but only commented a few times). It looks like my comment was downvoted, can someone explain why? Is thinking about stereotypes offensive? Or it was deemed irrelevant?

In short, it s because you seem to assume that the description of the neighborhood given was also the reason why it is cheaper. (It isn't, the reason is because its way the away from the center of town with almost nothing but residential areas). Generally stereotypes as a concept are considered inherently pejorative in the USA. Secondly, your inference that people are avoiding the neighborhood is because of the local…

Thank you for writing this thoughtful reply. It does a good job of explaining how the American conversation around race/culture works.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#67

Post by dheera »

junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

The virtual world is great but it doesn't replace the physical world. Location still makes a huge difference to tech startups in terms of getting talent, finding venues and events to pitch your idea, getting investor attention, and all that.

No matter how good our video streaming technology these days, it still makes a big, big difference to be with the right people in person.

If you were in middle-of-nowhere Nebraska you'd have a hard time finding co-founders, programmers, or investors within a 100-mile radius. Not to say it's a bad place, but it's really not the best place to be for a tech startup (unless you're completely set on a one-person startup, it's your parents' home and you just need a few months offline to churn out code on free rent and free food, or that place is your target market, in which case it might make some sense).

That said, I don't think the bay area is the only place. I'm working on an idea and I'm planning to stay in Boston for a while since the environment here is just starting to become awesome.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#68

Post by NiftyFifty »

This is generally how I survived 4 years of college _and_ worked in tech myself in the Buffalo area. It's hell of a lot cheaper than even that. This is absolutely brilliant though, but beware ... pride might get in the way for that sushi role desire. :) ty for sharing!

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#69

Post by danielbarla »

zingar wrote: post #61
danielbarla wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I think the 10x comparison is a bit off (I'm also in SA). On paper SA is supposed to have a purchasing power parity of around -50 to -60% [1] (so, things are on average that much cheaper here than in the USA). Of course, SF is significantly more expensive than other places in the USA (although typically not more than a factor of say, 1.5 to 2x). If we add all this up,…

Thanks. I'm in Cape Town and I was thinking of rent numbers - having heard that a room in a shared house might rent for 2000$/mo in SF vs. say R2000 on the cheap end here. That rent number isn't based on fancy accoms but since I've been in the southern suburbs all my life some would say that I'm living an entitled lifestyle (CT Southern Suburbs =~ JHB Northern Suburbs). You could obviously halve your rent in some are…

Rent prices are specifically incredibly high in SF (check the 2nd link I provided for the line-by-line breakdown), hence it being an obvious target for saving money.

For SA, R2000 per month for rent seems very cheap to me; was that including water & electricity? I'm in the Pretoria area, which is supposed to be slightly cheaper than JHB, but then it varies greatly by area. A few years back, friends were paying around R6000 to share a 3 bedroom duplex with a tiny garden (including water & elec). A 4 bedroom house in my neighbourhood is for rent at R10000, but I'm not sure if that even includes municipality fees. In my experience, municipality costs come to around R1500-2500 per month for a house that size, with winter months spiking to ~R4000 if you don't want to freeze.

To answer the R5000 / 6000 question, I can't really imagine doing that without both major cuts in standard of living AND cutting major corners with things like (health | life | disability | car | home) insurance, retirement, etc. I've already chosen to be frugal on some of these, e.g. opting for a hospitalisation plan instead of full cover (still ~R1100 p.m. for 1 person, although I'm not getting any special discounts there), choosing 3rd party for my car over (R200 p.m. vs R1200 p.m., but then you have to have paid off your car), but even then these costs add up very quickly. ADSL line rental + cheapest package is still going to be ~R200 per month. A visit to a doctor + medication is often around R500 to R1000. Even if you only budget R20 per meal (water + pap maybe?), that still comes to almost R2000, and we're already over the budget. Most of the software developers I know seem to have expenses in the R20000 to R30000 range. Some of the things which were optional in my 20s are non optional in my 30s, and this also changes the picture.

So yeah, it's perhaps feasible if you forgo almost all safety nets and luxuries, and do not put away anything for the future. Personally, I would (and have) taken a different approach involving part-time contracting work. At the cost of reducing your spare time (I'm assuming we're talking about creating startups here, not just basic survival), it can completely change the risks involved. Again, it varies greatly, but e.g. a R200+ per hour rate is achievable relatively quickly if you're productive, and would give a R16000 per month baseline at 80 hours, or half-employment.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#70

Post by yesimahuman »

junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

The data suggests that many of the most successful companies are there, but certainly not all of them (and the ones outside are probably a lot quieter or covered less in the news). Turns out there is a lot higher concentration of people trying to build startups there than the average city, so as a consequence of that more are there.

Having built my own, raised money, and gained traction, all outside of the valley (though I do spend a fair amount of time there), I don't see myself rushing to do my next one in SV.

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