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The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

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Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#61

Post by sabalaba »

api wrote: post #34

Capitalism indeed seems to consign the masses to work that is drudgery and is intellectually beneath them, but so does socialism. Every socialist experiment I'm familiar with has almost instantly devolved into a form of a capitalism based on social pull with the bureaucracy rather than financial leverage. The final endpoint of this trajectory seems to be the mafia state -- pure social pull capitalism within criminal-…

I completely agree that solutions probably don't lie within politics as usual. But, from the perspective libcom would have you adopt, we should go to "liberatarian communism". The real irony here is that libcom is trying to spread this brand of communism by highlighting a tragedy in a country that has seen the fastest rise out of poverty in the history of the world due to, ahem, free market economic reforms.

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#62

Post by svachalek »

brd wrote: post #57
svachalek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we didn't buy electronics, or what if we insisted on treating these workers so well it made more sense to leave the factories in the US? Then our money stays here and young men and women like Xu are back in their villages trying to scrape out a living on a few square meters of soil. Workers take these jobs because it's an opportunity to improve their life and the lives of their families. It may still be miser…

This argument always comes up and its an argument I hate. If for no other reason, I dislike it because from what I've seen rates of depression are dramatically higher when you introduce these sorts of jobs vs. letting people scrape by working land in a 3rd world setting. What you're arguing is (excuse the hyperbolic nature of the example) that slavery is better than leaving indigenous people in their natural setting.…

FWIW, I've been to Shenzhen and actually ended up in a hotel across the street from the big Foxconn campus where I assume Xu worked. At shift change time an unbelievable army comes rolling out; I believe it's over 100,000 workers per shift although most live on-campus. But they looked pretty much like any group of blue collar workers I've ever seen getting off work. They were talking, smiling, laughing, eating snacks.

15 years ago I saw some of rural China. I saw a lot of dirty, leathery, gap-toothed people, and it seemed most couldn't afford shoes. The population density was incredible, with entire families working plots of land that weren't any bigger than suburban yards.

These days, to be fair, it's gotten quite a bit better in the countryside as the Chinese economy has boomed, food prices have risen, and many people have moved to the city. People look healthier, wear shoes, have plumbing. But for the sake of comparing the "indigenous" life I don't think it's fair to look at the post-industrialized state.

I guess in short I'm saying it's not fair to over-dramatize the difference and think about shackled slaves vs. native warriors riding around grassy plains. I think ultimately it's only fair to ask the people themselves and I think you will find that the average Chinese worker is far happier with the direction their life and country are moving in than the average American.

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#63

Post by diydsp »

svachalek wrote: post #54
brd wrote: post #13

This is one of those moments where I'm utterly distressed by the lack of a solution to curb all the frivolous consumerism of the world. It's scary to consider how many others are just like Xu and how many more, us included, are only slightly better off.

What if we didn't buy electronics, or what if we insisted on treating these workers so well it made more sense to leave the factories in the US? Then our money stays here and young men and women like Xu are back in their villages trying to scrape out a living on a few square meters of soil. Workers take these jobs because it's an opportunity to improve their life and the lives of their families. It may still be miser…

> What if we didn't buy electronics,

I'm on this wavelength, but I don't think we can all dial down our behavior to nil quickly.

Instead, I think a good start would be to buy less electronics, e.g. only when they wear out, instead of just buying the new thing b/c it will outperform other people.

Also, to repair the electronics we have and buy electronics that are designed to be maintainable and long-lasting.

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#64

Post by zhengyi13 »

wyager wrote: post #33
sroerick wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suicide rate in federal prisons is lower than that of the general population as well. Does that mean that the quality of life is higher in federal prisons? Or is it simply that Foxconn employees feel so trapped by their conditions they are deprived of even the ability to take their own life? Perhaps with enough rhetorical gymnastics we can disassociate Xu Lizhi's experience from the electronics in our pockets and…

>Foxconn employees feel so trapped by their conditions they are deprived of even the ability to take their own life Wait, so now the issue isn't "Foxconn employees kill themselves too much", it's "Foxconn employees don't kill themselves enough"?

I'm not sure this is what GP was addressing, but there is a very real phenomenon of getting so depressed that you can't even manage to kill yourself. You actually see increased risk of suicide at the beginning of therapy for some patients, where they come up enough to get just enough mental energy to successfully kill themselves.

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#65

Post by xarien »

The second poem actually gives quite a bit of insight regarding his situation. Translation from Chinese to English is hard and much is lost in translation. I'll translate the following to prose as to minimize what's lost in the translation:

《冲突》 "Conflict"

他们都说 They all say

我是个话很少的孩子 I'm a child of few words

对此我并不否认 This I don't deny

实际上 But actually

我说与不说 Whether I speak or not

都会跟这个社会 With this society I'll still

发生冲突 Conflict

"They've always told me that I was a quiet child. I do not deny that fact, however, whether I speak up or not doesn't alter the fact that I feel incompatible with this society."

The main beef I have with the translation is that conflict is a very explicit word whereas Chinese is much more implicit. It's pretty obvious that there was a large disconnect with what he wanted out of society vs reality. This is unfortunately quite common in China.

Being someone who grew up reading Chinese novels extensively, I can attest that the culture itself is heavily romanticized and when compared to the modern subversion influenced by the communist party, it's figuratively night and day.

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#67

Post by tjradcliffe »

xarien wrote: post #65

The second poem actually gives quite a bit of insight regarding his situation. Translation from Chinese to English is hard and much is lost in translation. I'll translate the following to prose as to minimize what's lost in the translation: 《冲突》 "Conflict" 他们都说 They all say 我是个话很少的孩子 I'm a child of few words 对此我并不否认 This I don't deny 实际上 But actually 我说与不说 Whether I speak or not 都会跟这个社会 With this society I'll still 发…

His poem "On My Deathbed", which the article opens with, reminds me a bit of this one by Hai Zi, another Chinese poet who took his own life: http://greenteadoodles.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/hai-zi-mysti...

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#68

Post by jolohaga »

yourad_io wrote: post #6
yourad_io wrote: post #4

The poems is heart breaking. Read them, even if they put a dent in your day.

I mean... 《一颗螺丝掉在地上》 "A Screw Fell to the Ground" 一颗螺丝掉在地上 A screw fell to the ground 在这个加班的夜晚 In this dark night of overtime 垂直降落，轻轻一响 Plunging vertically, lightly clinking 不会引起任何人的注意 It won’t attract anyone’s attention 就像在此之前 Just like last time 某个相同的夜晚 On a night like this 有个人掉在地上 When someone plunged to the ground ...fuck.

Brutally and powerfully honest and real, even in translation

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#69

Post by CaptainSwing »

sabalaba wrote: post #61
api wrote: post #34

Capitalism indeed seems to consign the masses to work that is drudgery and is intellectually beneath them, but so does socialism. Every socialist experiment I'm familiar with has almost instantly devolved into a form of a capitalism based on social pull with the bureaucracy rather than financial leverage. The final endpoint of this trajectory seems to be the mafia state -- pure social pull capitalism within criminal-…

I completely agree that solutions probably don't lie within politics as usual. But, from the perspective libcom would have you adopt, we should go to "liberatarian communism". The real irony here is that libcom is trying to spread this brand of communism by highlighting a tragedy in a country that has seen the fastest rise out of poverty in the history of the world due to, ahem , free market economic reforms.

I think that you are simplifying the perspective of the bloggers here. They have been writing updates on workers struggles and other incidents of civil unrest in China over the last few decades, and I think that, from a libertarian communist perspective, the struggling workers would be seen as the most important agent of social change,the 'rise out of poverty' as you phrased it, in China over this period, rather than the states supposed embrace of free market capitalism (which itself is a complicated issue).

Re: The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014)

#70

Post by CaptainSwing »

MSM wrote: post #7
simplemath wrote: post #3

Time for another facile PR stunt, Apple! Alternatively, how about sowing 0.01% of your cash back into these workers and demanding that the factory improve working and living conditions?

My understanding is that the only reason these jobs aren't automated already is because labor is cheaper. Unfortunately I think the alternative to a terrible job like working for Foxconn is no job at all for a lot of folks.

Why should we have to choose between low paid, dangerous, uninteresting/soul destroying work or unemployment and poverty?

The question about automation, for me, is one of how we can more sensibly organise the necessary work so that we can each share both the labour and its products?

I dream of a world where I can make machines to save work, and know I'm not putting somebody out of a job they need to feed themselves, but reducing the workload for the whole of society, giving us more free time (or more stuff).

"I shall hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, and quibble on HN after Dinner" Marl Karx

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