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Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

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61–70 of 70 posts

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#61
post #31
post #20

There are a lot of comments along the lines of "why are the fines so low" or "why is nobody doing jail time?" And the answer to both those questions is: stiffer punishment would require stronger proof. Cartel activity, like much white collar crime in general, is extremely difficult to prosecute, because the difference between totally legal conduct and illegal conduct comes down to what people are thinking. Instead of…

> Should Eric Schmidt be in jail for his role in the employee wage suppression collusion? Er, why shouldn't he be? I can think of three main likely arguments why he shouldn't: i) what he did breached civil but not criminal law: if so then obviously he shouldn't be in jail. I don't know whether that's the case though. I also don't know if he is personally liable for civil damages, and if so why he hasn't been chased f…

> Eric Schmidt is a nice person like us, and jail isn't really for nice people like us.

Well, in theory, your sarcasm is correct: this is a ridiculous statement. In practice our jail system is fucked as is evidenced by the rate at which going to jail turns you into more of a criminal, and so yes, jail is not for "nice people like us". Of course, it's also "not for not nice people not like us", and Martha Stewart didn't seem to be turned into more of a criminal, so at his level of wealth maybe he would go a jail "for nice people like us."

Annnd maybe I'm also totally wrong on this too; call me on it how you see fit.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#62
post #20

There are a lot of comments along the lines of "why are the fines so low" or "why is nobody doing jail time?" And the answer to both those questions is: stiffer punishment would require stronger proof. Cartel activity, like much white collar crime in general, is extremely difficult to prosecute, because the difference between totally legal conduct and illegal conduct comes down to what people are thinking. Instead of…

Whatever a culture values most, the people who control that most valued thing end up being most powerful.

Our culture values money - a lot.

End of story.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#63
The reason we have low interest rates are that these banks who commit crime after crime own the Federal reserve. The same banks has also put ex Goldman sachs president as head of the european central bank. People have to understand how the monetary system works or we will all end up as debt slaves to unafforadable housing that banks with zero interest create from thin air.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be very careful when reading Matt Taibbi. He's not a journalist trying to illuminate a reality about the world. He's a storyteller tying to marshall anecdote in support of a good read. A lot of what he says isn't exactly wrong...but it's really true either.

i know he is trying to sell books - but look it up, HSBC laundered money for the cartels, they got caught, paid a 1.9 billion dollar fine, and no one went to jail - and the bank didnt even have to admit what they did was wrong. he is "right" about the important parts of this story anyways

[deleted]

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be very careful when reading Matt Taibbi. He's not a journalist trying to illuminate a reality about the world. He's a storyteller tying to marshall anecdote in support of a good read. A lot of what he says isn't exactly wrong...but it's really true either.

i know he is trying to sell books - but look it up, HSBC laundered money for the cartels, they got caught, paid a 1.9 billion dollar fine, and no one went to jail - and the bank didnt even have to admit what they did was wrong. he is "right" about the important parts of this story anyways

Taibbi's use of facts leaves much to be desired. In writing a book, he has the luxury to weave together strands from different sources, leaving it to the reader to make all sorts of inferences. A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences.

Here's a pretty neutral take on the facts: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-hsbc-probe-idUS....

This stuff makes for good reading, but let's break it down through a legal lens. There is nothing illegal about your banking services being used to deposit the proceeds of illegal activity. It almost certainly happens all the time to every bank. In fact, no bank executive could say with a straight face that they don't have a generalized knowledge that their services are used for money laundering. What differentiates legal from illegal conduct, on the part of the bank, is nothing more than what the bank knew about the nature of the money deposited in specific transactions: http://www.swlaw.com/assets/pdf/news/2011/09/26/MoneyLaunder.... The crime requires the government to prove that the defendant had knowledge that the deposits were proceeds of illegal activity.

Viewed through this lens, the facts are much less compelling:

> Despite the known risks of doing business in Mexico, the bank put the country in its lowest risk category

The mens rea is knowledge, not negligence. To be relevant here, the "known risks" would have to be so blatant that ignoring them would amount to willful ignorance of specific illegal deposits.

> which excluded $670 billion in transactions from the monitoring systems, according to the documents.

This might provide a motive for the alleged crime, but it's much stronger in a case for negligence than in a case for money laundering. Moreover, HSBC's selection of controls probably excludes trillions of dollars of transactions in places like the U.S. or Canada. This fact by itself doesn't tell you anything other than that the bank has an incentive to implement as few expensive controls as it can get away with.

> Bank officials repeatedly ignored internal warnings that HSBC's monitoring systems were inadequate, the Justice Department said.

First, "repeatedly ignored" is a characterization, not a fact. Second, HSBC was not legally required to implement this particular controls. Third, for this fact to be relevant, the warnings would have to make the problem so apparent that ignoring them amounted to willful blindness to specific illegal activity.

> In 2008, for example, the CEO of HSBC Mexico was told that Mexican law enforcement had a recording of a Mexican drug lord saying that HSBC Mexico was the place to launder money.

This sounds really compelling, but it's really not very strong legally. First, you have evidentiary issues. An anecdote about a recording of a comment by a Mexican drug lord isn't going to get admitted as evidence that drug traffickers actually used HSBC to launder money. It's hearsay. Second, it doesn't refer to specific deposits of illegal proceeds, nor is it so compelling as to prove that failure to act on this knowledge amounts to willful ignorance as to specific illegal deposits. Third, you have to prove that the parent company knew anything about all of this.

> Mexican traffickers used boxes specifically designed to the dimensions of an HSBC Mexico teller's window to deposit cash on a daily basis.

This is legally irrelevant unless you can prove that: 1) anyone who mattered at HSBC actually knew what shape these boxes were and why; 2) that failure to act in light of this knowledge amounted to willful blindness as to specific illegal deposits.

> At times, only one to four employees were responsible for reviewing alerts identifying suspicious wire transactions. When HSBC processed bulk cash, a business it calls Banknotes, only one or two compliance officials oversaw transactions for 500 to 600 customers, the Justice Department said.

This is again more relevant to a negligence claim than a money laundering charge. Does this evidence go to prove that HSBC had knowledge of specific illegal transactions?

The "drug trafficker's boxes" fact is a great example of the difference between a narrative in a book and an actual prosecution. Taibbi can state it as a fact and let the reader draw all sorts of conclusions. But as a prosecutor, you must: 1) Find someone with personal knowledge of the shape of the boxes; this guy is likely a drug trafficker and thus not a very sympathetic witness;

2) Find someone with personal knowledge who can testify that HSBC had actual knowledge of the boxes and appreciated the significance of the shape;

3) Justify taking HSBC's knowledge of the shape of the boxes + HSBC's knowledge of the widespread nature of their use, and from that inferring that HSBC knew specific deposits were the proceeds of illegal activity.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i know he is trying to sell books - but look it up, HSBC laundered money for the cartels, they got caught, paid a 1.9 billion dollar fine, and no one went to jail - and the bank didnt even have to admit what they did was wrong. he is "right" about the important parts of this story anyways

Taibbi's use of facts leaves much to be desired. In writing a book, he has the luxury to weave together strands from different sources, leaving it to the reader to make all sorts of inferences. A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences. Here's a pretty neutral take on the facts: htt…

> A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences.

Look - Im not a lawyer - nor would I ever want to be - but what I do know is we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010 and no one has gone to jail for it.

You can say that "A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework" but that doesnt change the fact that we live in a world where rich powerful people and corporations commit serious crimes and dont go to jail for them.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#68
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taibbi's use of facts leaves much to be desired. In writing a book, he has the luxury to weave together strands from different sources, leaving it to the reader to make all sorts of inferences. A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences. Here's a pretty neutral take on the facts: htt…

> A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences. Look - Im not a lawyer - nor would I ever want to be - but what I do know is we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010 and no one has gone to jail for it. You can say that "A prosecuto…

> we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010

We did? That might be something you believe, but I don't think it's something proven by evidence.

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A prosecutor, however, is restricted by an evidentiary framework that allows certain facts to only be proved by certain sources, and allows juries to make only certain inferences. Look - Im not a lawyer - nor would I ever want to be - but what I do know is we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010 and no one has gone to jail for it. You can say that "A prosecuto…

> we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010 We did? That might be something you believe, but I don't think it's something proven by evidence.

you did too - you just weren't paying attention: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/2008-financial-c...

Re: Four Banks, Including JPMorgan, Fined in Europe Over ‘Cartel’ Behavior

#70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we saw the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world take place between 2007-2010 We did? That might be something you believe, but I don't think it's something proven by evidence.

you did too - you just weren't paying attention: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/2008-financial-c...

That link says nothing at all about any sort of transfer of wealth it just says a lot about a bunch of people getting poorer. It's pretty widely acknowledged that the financial crisis revealed that we were not as rich as we thought we were. That's not the same thing as a transfer of wealth.
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