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FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#61

Post by Silhouette »

sliverstorm wrote: post #44
bri3d wrote: post #7

FTDI have been anti-consumer for years - their last several drivers have introduced intentional instability and Code 10 errors for suspected counterfeit devices. I think this is totally crappy. I see what they're trying to do (create market incentive for consumers to insist on real FTDI chips) but the reality is that it's just screwing over innocent consumers who buy a device.

screwing over innocent consumers who buy a device The consumer isn't exactly innocent. Hold on, hear me out. It's similar to black market goods. A consumer wants the lowest possible price. It turns out the goods he bought are stolen property. He didn't know , but he is not waived of responsibility. If he was truly unwitting he will not be prosecuted , but the goods will still be repossessed, etc. Basically, it is the…

The point of restoring stolen goods to their original owner is to undo the damage to that owner. It's not to punish someone who innocently and unknowingly came into possession of the goods at a later stage. The latter person losing out is necessary in that case only because justice can't be done entirely to both parties at the same time (unless the intermediary responsible for the theft is found and forced to compensate everyone who lost out).

In this case, screwing the innocent purchaser of a chip that is a knock-off is entirely unwarranted. It's hard to see how it wouldn't be a breach of the Computer Misuse Act 1990 in my country (England), which would seem to make impairing the operation of the component a criminal offence here.

Edit 1: Clarify wording/citation.

Edit 2: If I'm looking at the right company web site, these guys are actually headquartered in Scotland. I'm not sure whether the exact same law applies in their jurisdiction.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#62

Post by wtallis »

dsl wrote: post #42
snarfy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From their website: >The licence only allows use of the Software with, and the Software will only work with Genuine FTDI Components (as defined in the Licence Terms). Use of the Software as a driver for a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component MAY IRRETRIEVABLY DAMAGE THAT COMPONENT. IANAL but I don't believe this disclaimer can possibly be valid. Personal property rights cannot be waived away with a disclaim…

How are your personal property rights being violated? If an ATI graphics card lied and claimed to be an nVidia card and the drivers cause it to overheat and catch fire, who is at fault? Should you be required to QA your drivers against counterfeit products? Edit: nobody has shown that the driver is intentionally writing the ID to 0, the counterfeit chip isn't even close to the same circuitry and could be screwing up…

This isn't about damage from a lack of precautionary measures. It's about damage due to the drivers doing something completely irrelevant to ordinary use- code that has no reason to be in the driver in the first place.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#63

Post by mikeash »

sliverstorm wrote: post #44
bri3d wrote: post #7

FTDI have been anti-consumer for years - their last several drivers have introduced intentional instability and Code 10 errors for suspected counterfeit devices. I think this is totally crappy. I see what they're trying to do (create market incentive for consumers to insist on real FTDI chips) but the reality is that it's just screwing over innocent consumers who buy a device.

screwing over innocent consumers who buy a device The consumer isn't exactly innocent. Hold on, hear me out. It's similar to black market goods. A consumer wants the lowest possible price. It turns out the goods he bought are stolen property. He didn't know , but he is not waived of responsibility. If he was truly unwitting he will not be prosecuted , but the goods will still be repossessed, etc. Basically, it is the…

I'm curious, do you think this applies to you as well, or are you somehow confident that you own no counterfeit hardware?

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#64

Post by bri3d »

sliverstorm wrote: post #55
13 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not the case here. Fake FTDI chips are going to be used in absolutely everything, products from Alibaba to name brand professional stuff. It's pretty much guaranteed not everybody has complete control of their semiconductor supply chain, and even if they do there's an incentive for all companies to cut costs where they can. A consumer buying a product doesn't make an informed decision about the type of ser…

It shares the critical element of diffuse responsibility . Everyone can half-reasonably shrug their shoulders and say, "Well it isn't MY fault". If a Sony product happens to have a fake FTDI chip in it, this is FTDI's way of incentivizing Sony (via angry customers) to manage their supply chain, because as you say there's an incentive even for Sony to cut costs where they can- perhaps by turning a blind eye when they…

As a consumer I have no way to know if the FTDI in my device is real. It really isn't my fault.

This is FTDI's way of incentivizing companies using consumers, like I said in my original comment, and it sucks.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#65

Post by mikeash »

dsl wrote: post #42
snarfy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From their website: >The licence only allows use of the Software with, and the Software will only work with Genuine FTDI Components (as defined in the Licence Terms). Use of the Software as a driver for a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component MAY IRRETRIEVABLY DAMAGE THAT COMPONENT. IANAL but I don't believe this disclaimer can possibly be valid. Personal property rights cannot be waived away with a disclaim…

How are your personal property rights being violated? If an ATI graphics card lied and claimed to be an nVidia card and the drivers cause it to overheat and catch fire, who is at fault? Should you be required to QA your drivers against counterfeit products? Edit: nobody has shown that the driver is intentionally writing the ID to 0, the counterfeit chip isn't even close to the same circuitry and could be screwing up…

If the drivers caused it to overheat because of an oversight, then that's just sad. If the drivers caused it to overheat because the company went in and wrote, if(counterfeit) overheat(); then they're liable. Surely this should be obvious.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#66

Post by joezydeco »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #53
mmagin wrote: post #10

As mentioned, Prolific's USB serial driver previously dropped support for counterfeit some Prolific chips, albeit not in quite as nasty of a way.

And I'm totally fine with that, even though that also creates a bad UX, especially for users who previously had a working thing, updated their driver / software, and now have a broken thing. Really hope everyone starts dumping FTDI and they end up in a class-action lawsuit. USB serial converters are a commodity these days, regardless of what these goons think. If they can't compete in a free market, they should find…

They're a commodity because they're all using counterfeit FTDI and Prolific chips.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#67

Post by sliverstorm »

mikeash wrote: post #63
sliverstorm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

screwing over innocent consumers who buy a device The consumer isn't exactly innocent. Hold on, hear me out. It's similar to black market goods. A consumer wants the lowest possible price. It turns out the goods he bought are stolen property. He didn't know , but he is not waived of responsibility. If he was truly unwitting he will not be prosecuted , but the goods will still be repossessed, etc. Basically, it is the…

I'm curious, do you think this applies to you as well, or are you somehow confident that you own no counterfeit hardware?

Of course it applies to me. I am not supremely confident I own no counterfeit hardware. Especially when it comes to some of the cheap cables and adapters I own.

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#68

Post by sliverstorm »

bri3d wrote: post #64
sliverstorm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shares the critical element of diffuse responsibility . Everyone can half-reasonably shrug their shoulders and say, "Well it isn't MY fault". If a Sony product happens to have a fake FTDI chip in it, this is FTDI's way of incentivizing Sony (via angry customers) to manage their supply chain, because as you say there's an incentive even for Sony to cut costs where they can- perhaps by turning a blind eye when they…

As a consumer I have no way to know if the FTDI in my device is real. It really isn't my fault. This is FTDI's way of incentivizing companies using consumers, like I said in my original comment, and it sucks .

As a consumer I had no way of knowing the motorcycle I bought was stolen. It came with the keys, the title, there was no evidence of thievery (most commonly broken parts around the ignition). The police said, "Wow we wouldn't have known this was stolen without running it in our database either".

I didn't know. But it still gets repossessed, and I'm still out $1k.

(True story, and my first brush with the laws around black markets)

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#69

Post by gioele »

0x0 wrote: post #19

I hope this causes a major and publicly visible malfunction in some important device/installation/machinery, of course with no harm done to any persons, but enough of an embarrasment to really set an example, so no vendor will think of pulling tricks like these in the future. Takeaway lesson: End users should never touch anything remotely FTDI-like, since it's probably impossible to verify if the device is genuine or…

My takeaway lesson is that end users should never trust closed source drivers.

Can you picture a Linux or *BSD driver in which there is an intentional

    if (counterfeit) { do_damage(); }

Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232s

#70

Post by tcas »

wyager wrote: post #23
tcas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They luckily did fix this in a relatively recent version -- try updating your driver. Still crazy that it shipped in the first place like that. EDIT: just realized that I was thinking of the PL2303, which had a similar issue, not FTDI.

The newest version I can find on their site says it's from 2012. Link?

Oops, was dealing with a similar issue with the Prolific 2303, which was dealt with by using a newer driver, I haven't run into the issue yet with FTDI (which I don't as much).
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