Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Raw Deal in Michigan

teslamotors.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 201 posts

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#61

Post by srs0001 »

protonfish wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

What about when campaign finance reform was passed? I thought that it was a fantastic idea, but we ended up with super PACs, which have seemingly unlimited funds. Even worse, the politicians they support can say that they don't have control and shed any liability.

I too want to hear ideas for fixing the system, but I think it is going to take more than just a few laws being passed.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#62

Post by nervousvarun »

vacri wrote: post #49
protonfish wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

A friend of mine pointed out that the way US politicians have to campaign, they're always in need of donations for funding for electoral reasons. Even if you're not particularly prone to corruption, there's the problem that the only people you have time to give your ear to are the people who are going to give you money. It's a simplified view, but it does illustrate one problem with the way the US elects its official…

I'm sure they have issues of their own, but I believe Japan has a uniform cap on what politicians can spend on election campaigns. Just one possible solution.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#63

Post by CalRobert »

danielhunt wrote: post #2

As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public. Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community? What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all? * I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealershi…

This may get me downvoted, but I think the problem has more to do with the voters than the politicians. If people took the time to research candidates and issues independently instead of voting for whoever had the loudest ads, we might not see so much money in politics.

Also, they're lazy and they don't care. Nerds on HN do, but talk to normal folks and they just. don't. care. about much of anything political, and they use their horribly inadequate math skills and emotion to make decisions, instead of reason.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#64

Post by spacefight »

DavidWanjiru wrote: post #57
oatmeal_coffee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

Have a guess. I have one: the consumer pays up nicely in the end. Lobbying is done (most of the time) for the benefit of coorporations who wan't to expand their business volume.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#65

Post by wiremine »

skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised.

A few observations:

- Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and tier 3 manufactors. While I think logic would win out in the day, I wouldn't assume that everybody in Michigan _wants_ Tesla. It isn't in their best interest.

- I haven't seen one media story about this yet, outside of social media.

- We're in the middle of an election cycle year, including a gubernatorial race. So, the special interests picked a good time to insert this language: there are a lot of problems the state is still dealing with, including Detroit going through bankruptcy. And people want the money to win races.

Personally, I'd love to see Telsa in the state, both the cars and charging stations. But, honestly, Telsa isn't going to get much traction here until they improve cold weather battery performance.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#66

Post by oatmeal_coffee »

DavidWanjiru wrote: post #57
oatmeal_coffee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

The question is whether or not to ban lobbying is not a reasonable one, if only because lobbying would not be able to be banned just on a principle of free speech alone. People have a voice—good, bad, whatever—and lobbying provides an efficient means of communicating that voice. The question is rather how to reduce, if not obviate, the damage caused by the role of money in lobbying without violating free speech rights.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#67

Post by dopamean »

protonfish wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

Which continuing financial crisis are you referring to?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#68

Post by clarebear »

wiremine wrote: post #65
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

My retired father-in-law who lives in a suburb of Detroit got a car that was not manufactured by the by the Big Three a couple years ago. He felt so much social pressure that he quickly returned it and got one that was. He told me that some "foreign" cars would be egged in his neighborhood. I put foreign in quotes, as big three cars are not always manufactured in the US and sometimes other cars are manufactured here. But if you are from Detroit, where the headquarters is and the profits go back to matters most, and tangibly matters.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#69

Post by couchand »

wil421 wrote: post #43
willvarfar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do these donors represent the interests of the corporations or the citizens?

They represent the corporations but in the case of an autodealer association they are probably claiming to represent their employees. Think of them similar to a union except they are lobbying legislators instead of corporations.

Automotive dealerships are not at all like a union. There's a critical distinction here between labor and capital.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#70

Post by howeyc »

spacefight wrote: post #48
Al__Dante wrote: post #44

I think this might be the relevant change (contained in bill S-1 which was substituted in the Regulatory Reform Committee): "2 (i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer 3 other than through its franchised dealers, unless the retail 4 customer is a nonprofit organization or a federal, state, or local 5 government or agency. This subdivision does not prohibit a 6 manufacturer from providing informati…

Setup 100% Tesla-owned franchise. Sell through that.

I'm not sure you can do this. Isn't the point of the franchise that it's owned by someone else?

For example, if McDonald's corporate opens a location owned by them, can they called it a "franchise" location?

Post reply on HN