Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Persuade xor Discover

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 117 posts

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#61

Post by pg »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #58
pg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people dislike something intensely, the reason is not always what they claim, or even believe themselves. Try this thought experiment: if Arrington seemed like the nicest, most self-deprecating guy in the world-- like Father Mulcahy, for anyone who remembers MASH-- would people be so angry about his supposed lack of journalistic scruples?

Angry? No, because anger isn't the appropriate emotional response to such a person. But that doesn't mean that people would react positively , either. The response would simply be altered: people would likely try to work with him, try to correct his behavior as they saw fit, or dismiss him altogether. > When people dislike something intensely, the reason is not always what they claim, or even believe themselves. This…

What sort of evidence do you think would be appropriate?

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#62

Post by pg »

tsally wrote: post #57
pg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I've never met Arrington, so whether he's nice or not doesn't really apply to me." Sure it does, if you've read his articles. Obviously most of the people who complain about him in comment threads have not met him in person. The reason they dislike him is that he uses the same un-ingratiating style in his articles. When he reports something he's heard, he just reports it, without the usual boilerplate disclaimers th…

Sure it does, if you've read his articles. Obviously most of the people who complain about him in comment threads have not met him in person. The reason they dislike him is that he uses the same un-ingratiating style in his articles. I don't care if he appears to be a nice or a mean guy. I don't judge people by that criteria. My experience working in the academic research community has taught me that intelligent and…

You don't have to make money from what you say to be a hypocrite.

What Michael told me at TCC50 wasn't dishonest. If it had been, I'd have been upset. At an event like that, you're not going to ask exactly the same things you'd ask if a startup were actually pitching you. It's inevitably going to be somewhere between that and mere encouragement. Where between the two is simply a matter of convention. I had no idea what the convention was; I didn't mind being told.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#63

Post by thaumaturgy »

pg wrote: post #61
thaumaturgy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Angry? No, because anger isn't the appropriate emotional response to such a person. But that doesn't mean that people would react positively , either. The response would simply be altered: people would likely try to work with him, try to correct his behavior as they saw fit, or dismiss him altogether. > When people dislike something intensely, the reason is not always what they claim, or even believe themselves. This…

What sort of evidence do you think would be appropriate?

The kind that requires more than a day to put together.

At the very least, let's see some studies of controversial figures, the traits those figures have in common, and the most common reactions to them. Let's see if there's a correlation between mere abruptness in an individual, and widespread long-term dislike of that person.

Or do some social experiments, with actual control and experiment groups.

The point though was less about coming up with the right kind of experiments -- although that could be kind of fun -- and more that it's extremely arrogant to tell people that you understand them better than they do, especially when it's completely unjustified, as it is here.

Whether you consider that kind of arrogance to be a negative trait or not is up to you.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#64

Post by throwawayac »

pclark wrote: post #60
throwawayac wrote: post #53

I've met him. Plus a bunch more Valley personalities. I've been underwhelmed by their openness to non-fawning unknowns. Which is amusing me. A couple of years ago I sold my unknown european startup in a private (and NDA'd) transaction for around 45m dollars. After the handcuffs expired I moved to silicon valley last year and since then I've been lurking in the community. I've been talking to everyone and not playing…

come to Cambridge, UK. Nice city, people and startups.

Nice place and people but awful weather IMHO. I'm rather partial to the warmer climes.

I've heard the traffic is a hassle there? Can you comment?

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#65

Post by tsally »

pg wrote: post #62
tsally wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does, if you've read his articles. Obviously most of the people who complain about him in comment threads have not met him in person. The reason they dislike him is that he uses the same un-ingratiating style in his articles. I don't care if he appears to be a nice or a mean guy. I don't judge people by that criteria. My experience working in the academic research community has taught me that intelligent and…

You don't have to make money from what you say to be a hypocrite. What Michael told me at TCC50 wasn't dishonest. If it had been, I'd have been upset. At an event like that, you're not going to ask exactly the same things you'd ask if a startup were actually pitching you. It's inevitably going to be somewhere between that and mere encouragement. Where between the two is simply a matter of convention. I had no idea wh…

You don't have to make money from what you say to be a hypocrite.

Why? I'm criticizing him because he's a public figure and his words affect the daily lives and well-being of many people. My arguments in my original comment do not apply to the words of individuals in casual conversation, like the one we are having here. In fact, if we held ourselves to the same standards I'm demanding of Arrington, we'd hardly be able to have a conversation. I like to assume good faith for interactions among individuals. I'm not demanding proof about your interactions with Arrington am I?

However, I did edit my previous post with a link to proof mentioned by other posters.

What Michael told me at TCC50 wasn't dishonest. If it had been, I'd have been upset. At an event like that, you're not going to ask exactly the same things you'd ask if a startup were actually pitching you. It's inevitably going to be somewhere between that and mere encouragement. Where between the two is simply a matter of convention. I had no idea what the convention was; I didn't mind being told.

Ah, so we've established that the standards one should hold oneself to in discourse is a matter of context. I argue that Arrington holds himself to the standards of a blogger when the context he operates in demands that he hold himself to the standards of a journalist. TechCrunch likes to fire shots quickly and in large quantities and it doesn't really matter if a good number don't hit their mark. I know it makes the most business sense, but I don't deal out my respect based on business savvy.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#66

Post by brown9-2 »

throwawayac wrote: post #53

I've met him. Plus a bunch more Valley personalities. I've been underwhelmed by their openness to non-fawning unknowns. Which is amusing me. A couple of years ago I sold my unknown european startup in a private (and NDA'd) transaction for around 45m dollars. After the handcuffs expired I moved to silicon valley last year and since then I've been lurking in the community. I've been talking to everyone and not playing…

Hey if you sold your startup for $45 million, I don't think you count as a small fry at all.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#67

Post by ojbyrne »

throwawayac wrote: post #53

I've met him. Plus a bunch more Valley personalities. I've been underwhelmed by their openness to non-fawning unknowns. Which is amusing me. A couple of years ago I sold my unknown european startup in a private (and NDA'd) transaction for around 45m dollars. After the handcuffs expired I moved to silicon valley last year and since then I've been lurking in the community. I've been talking to everyone and not playing…

Having spent some time near the center of the whole web 2.0 thing I mostly agree. But I actually did find Arrington to be somewhat better that the norm. Not that that is saying much.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#68

Post by thaumaturgy »

vinutheraj wrote: post #28
mrshoe wrote: post #12

I think a lot of hackers, myself included, have a hard time with persuasion. I've found that my first instinct is often to respond to a coworker's proposal with something like, "Here are 10 reasons why that's a horrible idea." That ends up being counter-productive, so I'm trying to learn how to suppress that instinct. Unfortunately, people's egos get hurt easily. You can't tell them what you think. You can't disagree…

"Learn how to tell them to go to hell in such a way they'll want to go." - heard in the 61st Emmy Awards, forgot who said it though !

I've done this, and it's fun. It was also a bit of business judo -- I recommended an exceptionally difficult client to one of my competitors. Gave 'em the phone number and everything.

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#69

Post by ErrantX »

pg wrote: post #30
heuristix wrote: post #14

This is a strawman defence. PG is defending Arrington's curtness when you meet him in person and accepting the facts as presented (since I have no personal knowledge), the defense sounds reasonable. However, as many others mention below, most people dislike Arrington because Techcrunch has no journalistic scruples. The way they attacked Last.fm without even bothering to properly check into facts was yet another examp…

When people dislike something intensely, the reason is not always what they claim, or even believe themselves. Try this thought experiment: if Arrington seemed like the nicest, most self-deprecating guy in the world-- like Father Mulcahy, for anyone who remembers MASH-- would people be so angry about his supposed lack of journalistic scruples?

I think anger is unfair; I font like him much, I don't hold a lot of respect for him as an individual (though I respect his achievements) and I do think that recently he has started to get worse.

But Im not going to sit and rant angrily at him. Commentors on TechCrunch do plenty of that - but y'know every blog has that. TCC just reacts badly to it sometimes :)

Yes there are angry people - your right. Some probably dont like his abrasiveness (It's never worried me; my family are like that so Im used to it), some probably dont like his ethics and get cross (again, never understood that one). Sadly none of this is will change their minds :)

(Just look at Graywolf angrily hounding Matt Cutts day and night over any conspiracy he can formulate in Google blog posts / press release etc. he wont stop no matter how patient Cutts is with him)

Re: Persuade xor Discover

#70

Post by netsp »

pg wrote: post #48
philwelch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect many people would still have no idea what Arrington's personality is in person, and thus continue to judge him entirely based upon the behavior of TechCrunch. How he greets people in person probably has no real impact. This can extend even further--from everything I've gathered, George W. Bush is a very easy person to like once you know him in person. Yet he was very recently one of the most widely despised…

I didn't say people only dislike him because of the way he seems in person . How could all the random people who complain about him in comment threads have met him in person?

I'm hope I don't appear to be trolling or taking things out of context, but it did sort of sound like that, especially if one is skimming:

I offend people by writing. And I do it the same way Michael offends people in person:

Post reply on HN