Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim • Hacker News Board

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#61

Post by Slackwise » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:05 PM UTC

unclebunkers wrote: post #44

Slackwise wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elaborate, please. (I've gone and elaborated on my own comment. I might have misworded my intent.)

You want to change the name from neovim because they want to remove functionality that I'm guessing maybe 1% of the users use regularly. Even though for 99%, neovim is vim only modernized and cleaned up. It's illogical as you're doing a disservice to the users, and neovim is a clear name that describes what it is. New vim.

- It is a fork of Vim. - It is omitting some features. - It is adding a number of high level features. - It will not be fully backwards compatible.

Prefixing 'new' to the name of the forked project is as lazy as it can get [1]. 'Neo' is one step from that.

Vim itself wouldn't be a good name if it was just meaning "Vi iMproved", but 'Vim' is also a dictionary word meaning "energy; enthusiasm". A positive dictionary word, and a pseudo-acronym. That works well.

The dictionary has many words that start with Vi, or have it as a substring: http://www.scrabblefinder.com/starts-with/vi/

While just using a dictionary word may be a bit lazy, it is the allusion I was referring to in my previous comment. It would be an allusion to Vim also being a dictionary word, chosen because it starts with 'vi'. The cycle of improvement would continue.

For example, 'Vigor' would be a decent name, as "Vim and Vigor"[2] are a common phrase.

Definitely not saying that should be the name, but it's a path to try and see what the community might like.

[1]: The laziest is Nintendo's "New 3DS": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Nintendo_3DS [2]: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vim+and+vigor

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#62

Post by k__ » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:07 PM UTC

drostie wrote: post #55

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, thanks for the clarification :) Vim always seems like magic to me. I always use nano/pico when I need to edit something in the command line.

I'll tell you the dinky stupid reason why I started using vim over nano: I like my shells to have white backgrounds. I don't know why, but it's just restful to my eyes. Nano's default syntax highlighting on bash scripts is to highlight strings in bright yellow, which on a black backdrop makes sense, but on white is impossible to read. It took years of working with shell scripts, and a familiar litany of "I'll just lo…

I always used IDEs when I wanted highlighting.

Used nano just for some small changes when using SSH.

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#63

Post by fdsary » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:07 PM UTC

dorfsmay wrote: post #24

As an old "vi" user, I used it quite a bit both while editing and to test ex scripts. To me, by removing it, they will compete with emacs and the likes but not with vi/vim.

Burrrrn!

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#64

Post by dllthomas » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:08 PM UTC

drostie wrote: post #55

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, thanks for the clarification :) Vim always seems like magic to me. I always use nano/pico when I need to edit something in the command line.

I'll tell you the dinky stupid reason why I started using vim over nano: I like my shells to have white backgrounds. I don't know why, but it's just restful to my eyes. Nano's default syntax highlighting on bash scripts is to highlight strings in bright yellow, which on a black backdrop makes sense, but on white is impossible to read. It took years of working with shell scripts, and a familiar litany of "I'll just lo…

"The thing is, they could probably have won me over a million years earlier by starting me off at insert mode on the first line!"

I wouldn't like "open in insert mode" at all - if I'm opening an existing file, I probably want to edit it, not just add text (especially not at the beginning) - which means the first thing I'm probably wanting to do is navigate, which is much easier done in command mode.

When opening a new file, there's a better argument for starting in insert mode, but even then I'm likely to want to populate the buffer with the output of some command.

Of course, hitting escape first isn't disastrous - but neither is hitting i before you type.

All of that said, my defaults don't need to be your defaults! Add startinsert to your vimrc to get the behavior you want:

    echo startinsert >>~/.vimrc

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#65

Post by icebraining » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:08 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #59

dmix wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like certain VIM features you can keep using VIM.

Until neovim actually does something cool and new that you want to use. Ex mode isn't something I need often , but it's fantastic on a sufficiently slow connection (of which there are fewer these days) or a sufficiently broken terminal (slightly more common), and when you need it you need it to work.

Why don't you just keep both installed?

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#66

Post by k__ » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:09 PM UTC

sejje wrote: post #42

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, thanks for the clarification :) Vim always seems like magic to me. I always use nano/pico when I need to edit something in the command line.

Vim is a programmer's dream. If my only use were editing files in CLI, though, I'd have always used nano and not learned vim, as well.

I thought IDEs were a programmer's dream :D

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#67

Post by thegeomaster » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:09 PM UTC

goldfeld wrote: post #50

k__ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... similar to the command line mode ... Unlike the command-line mode you won't return to normal mode automatically ... enter ... by typing a Q in normal mode" So they have a mode you enter when pressing q (which quits many other programs) that you can't leave if you don't know the leave command? This is comedy gold. :D

As much as vim is known as the modal editor, that sounds like you're describing Emacs (I'm using evil-mode instead of vim these days.) Whereas vim has dual-modality as its core, it's very well-defined and self-contained as far as modes go, and with the exception of this Ex mode, you can get out of any weird state by pressing Esc. Emacs, on the other hand, has potentially dozens of different 'modes' you can accidental…

I'm interested to hear why you're using evil-mode instead of vim if that's how you feel. I'm using vim with slimv for Lisp hacking at the moment and I have to admit that there are some whoopsies, but not enough to make me learn to use a whole new editor :)

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#68

Post by gfodor » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:10 PM UTC

otikik wrote: post #39

This is like dropping support for Internet Explorer 6 in a website - code gets cleaner at the expense of a minor group of users getting a worse experience. I think it is a good tradeoff.

More like IE3. Nobody uses ex mode.

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#69

Post by dllthomas » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:16 PM UTC

sejje wrote: post #42

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, thanks for the clarification :) Vim always seems like magic to me. I always use nano/pico when I need to edit something in the command line.

Vim is a programmer's dream. If my only use were editing files in CLI, though, I'd have always used nano and not learned vim, as well.

It seems like "perform a bunch of pretty similar changes across most lines of a file with a couple hundred lines" is the kind of thing that shows up far more regularly for sysadmins than for programmers, and it's something where vim shines. The last time I worked somewhere with someone in an explicit "sysadmin" role, they were regularly bugging me for vim tips (not that I minded).

Re: Remove Ex-Mode from Neovim

#70

Post by tokenrove » Fri, Sep 19, 2014, 3:16 PM UTC

goldfeld wrote: post #50

k__ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... similar to the command line mode ... Unlike the command-line mode you won't return to normal mode automatically ... enter ... by typing a Q in normal mode" So they have a mode you enter when pressing q (which quits many other programs) that you can't leave if you don't know the leave command? This is comedy gold. :D

As much as vim is known as the modal editor, that sounds like you're describing Emacs (I'm using evil-mode instead of vim these days.) Whereas vim has dual-modality as its core, it's very well-defined and self-contained as far as modes go, and with the exception of this Ex mode, you can get out of any weird state by pressing Esc. Emacs, on the other hand, has potentially dozens of different 'modes' you can accidental…

C-g almost always helps.