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Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

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Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#61

Post by pyre »

rayiner wrote: post #45
DSMan195276 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Points worth considering: ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed , not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". And it's worth noting that this is a case where the ISP is in complete control of the speed you get Netflix. There are many cases where the ISP doesn't have a h…

> ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". I think you're reading an "anything on the internet" into your service agreement that isn't there, but even then you have at best a case for false advertising. If ISP's were up front ab…

> If ISP's were up front about these practices, would it be OK?

It certainly doesn't help that the SOP for ISPs in the US is to deflect blame for network issues, even when the blame falls squarely on them (throttling Netflix, their DNS server is down, etc). It's always the user's fault or the remote site's fault. Never the ISP's fault.

You can even see this in the rhetoric that they espouse about Netflix. The ISPs are choosing to throttle Netflix. It's a business decision. Yet, they want people to think that it's Netflix's fault for not "paying up." Regardless of whether or not you think that the ISPs have a right to ask Netflix for this money, it's disingenuous to say it's Netflix's "fault" for deciding not to pay.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#62

Post by michaelt »

keithpeter wrote: post #47

I'm in the UK so our problems are a bit different e.g. the speed available for any service depends on the last mile; you can get a cable connection and pay for pointless services that you don't want as a package; you might win the Fibre to Cabinet post code lottery, or you stay on adsl over copper at around 2.4Mbits/sec; or you ditch the land line and pay for mobile. I wish the campaign well.

It isn't only the cable connection that comes with services you don't want; there's no ADSL or FTTC without a landline and the associated line rental.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#63

Post by pyre »

everythingswan wrote: post #30
rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

I don't really like the term middle man for this. They repackage and sell a service. They have solved a problem better than anyone else. That is real value. Just because the product or service is a derivative of something else doesn't mean it doesn't have real value. Fantasy football, for example. Should we look at fantasy football sites because they just repackage NFL stats? In this situation, we should just let AT&…

> In this situation, we should just let AT&T/Bell dictate all things internet, since they laid the foundation with their lines.

... at a time when the government guaranteed their profits. I think that's an important point to remember when a business built off of years of government-granted monopoly starts complaining about government regulation.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#64

Post by prepare »

rayiner wrote: post #40
prepare wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ISPs didn't spend billions building this network, they were handed billions of dollars from the government to build the network What if it were Comcast charging Sony extra money to deliver their streaming service for Sony produced content? What if Time Warner wants to charge Hulu extra money to deliver content since it is owned by Comcast? You can dismiss Netflix for not creating content to a small degree (house…

> The ISPs didn't spend billions building this network, they were handed billions of dollars from the government to build the network This is absolutely false. Almost all the existing cable infrastructure was built with private money. > Can you imagine trying to start a web based company and being forced to pay monthly fees to every single ISP just to get decent speeds to end users? So? It's precarious to build a bus…

>Almost all the existing cable infrastructure was built with private money. [citation needed] meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_States#G... has a great list of numerous government programs and funds that have dispensed billions of dollars into network infrastructure in the US

>I don't see why web businesses should be different than app businesses in this regard

So you see the World Wide Web as an equivalent to the Android Play Store? I find it hard to believe you do not see the gaping difference here. 1. the web was invented by a government agency 2. You pay for access to the web, this includes upload and download bandwidth, there are no restrictions that limit what you are allowed to do with this bandwidth, there is no agreement that you will only use specified port numbers, and not upload more than x amount of data, etc 3. would you say the automobile industry is wholly dependant on someone else's infrastructure? (roads, highways, street lights, electricity, etc) 4. again you pay for access to the web, not the web itself - the internet is not a product that is controlled by anyone, only its access is controlled. This is fundamentally different from an app store that a company wholly owns, and controls all content within

Comcast does not own or control any part of the internet itself, everything on the internet exists on the internet independently of Comcast. The only thing that Comcast provides subscribers is a pipe to and from the internet with an agreed upon speed to the internet

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#65

Post by NSAID »

wrkng wrote: post #52

For folks who really want to dive into the technical arguments here, I highly recommend this paper by the new FCC CTO (and UCI CS prof) Scott Jordan: http://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/168/88 This addresses ALL of the concerns raised on this thread about incentives, competition, various arguments for/against net neutrality, and it finally proposes what I consider to be a very fair solution. I just read it ye…

That's a great paper and addresses some of the concerns I've had about net neutrality. Given the push away from traditional cable/telephony infrastructure to IP based services, it seems misguided if your ISP cannot also guarantee high quality VoIP service simply because internet and voice are coming over the same wire.

From the paper:

Table 2. Effect of policy goals upon an ISP offering VoIP.

Is it acceptable if …

… a carrier blocks a competitor’s VoIP traffic? no

… a carrier doesn't block a competitor’s VoIP traffic, but doesn't offer QoS to competitor’s VoIP subscribers while using QoS for its own VoIP subscribers? no

… a carrier gives a broadband subscriber who uses a competitor’s VoIP service the choice of (a) best-effort transport of their VoIP traffic as part of the basic broadband package, (b) enhanced performance for their VoIP traffic for an additional 1¢/min paid by the subscriber, or (c) enhanced performance for up to 500 minutes of their VoIP traffic for an additional $5/month paid by the subscriber? yes

… a carrier gives a VoIP competitor the choice of (a) best-effort transport of their VoIP traffic as part of the subscriber’s basic broadband package or (b) enhanced performance for their VoIP traffic for an additional 1¢/min paid by the VoIP provider? yes

… a carrier charges different VoIP competitors different prices for QoS? no

… a carrier charges VoIP competitors a uniform price for QoS, but a different price than charged to its own affiliates? no

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#66

Post by rayiner »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #56
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two parties benefit when you order a movie on Netflix: you, and Netflix. The company that builds the infrastructure should be able to charge both. It's just how public transit infrastructure is often funded by a combination of user fees and increment taxes on the businesses served by the new road or train line. Indeed, it's a fairly basic principle of the economics of building infrastructure. A free market underinves…

Netflix pays a company to provide Internet infrastructure to them. (Level 3, I think) If your ISP isn't Level 3, they should not have the economic right to charge Netflix, because your ISP doesn't service them. Customers pay their ISP to deliver things customers want, no more, no less.

Even if Netflix pays someone to get its data to Comcast's or AT&T's network, they benefit enormously from Comcast or AT&T getting that data to the consumer. In theory, both intermediate ISP's should have the right to charge both endpoints.

And in fact, that's how it has traditionally worked on the internet. Netflix would pay it's ISP, and the consumer would pay their ISP, and the ISP's would pay each other to account for any asymmetry in the data transfer between them (peering). These payments would ultimately be reflected in the charges billed to both endpoints, so the ultimate effect was that each intermediate ISP effective billed each endpoint of the connection.

This whole debacle arose because Netflix's ISP (Cogent) wasn't willing to adhere to the traditional peering arrangements. So in the end, Netflix ended up paying to connect directly to Comcast's network.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#67

Post by DSMan195276 »

rayiner wrote: post #45
DSMan195276 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Points worth considering: ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed , not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". And it's worth noting that this is a case where the ISP is in complete control of the speed you get Netflix. There are many cases where the ISP doesn't have a h…

> ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". I think you're reading an "anything on the internet" into your service agreement that isn't there, but even then you have at best a case for false advertising. If ISP's were up front ab…

I doubt it has that specific wording, yes, and I do know that it has the wording "up to", not guaranteed, so they're not breaking the contract.

But the point still stands, why the heck am I paying for 2 MB/s download speed if my ISP isn't even going to give me that much if I pay for it? IMO, it's simply bull. If they were actually upfront about these practices (instead of just making it look like Netflix's or whoever-else's fault) I can guarantee you their would be a ton more outrage. If my ISP isn't going to actually give me 2 MB/s download when they are completely capable of doing it, and I paid for it, that's just absurd. In any other industry that type of practice would easily be grounds for a lawsuit. It's not even that it's out of their control, they're purposely going against attempting to fulfill what you're paying for.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#68

Post by [deleted] »

DSMan195276 wrote: post #67
rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". I think you're reading an "anything on the internet" into your service agreement that isn't there, but even then you have at best a case for false advertising. If ISP's were up front ab…

I doubt it has that specific wording, yes, and I do know that it has the wording "up to", not guaranteed, so they're not breaking the contract. But the point still stands, why the heck am I paying for 2 MB/s download speed if my ISP isn't even going to give me that much if I pay for it? IMO, it's simply bull. If they were actually upfront about these practices (instead of just making it look like Netflix's or whoever…

[deleted]

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#69

Post by rayiner »

pyre wrote: post #63
everythingswan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really like the term middle man for this. They repackage and sell a service. They have solved a problem better than anyone else. That is real value. Just because the product or service is a derivative of something else doesn't mean it doesn't have real value. Fantasy football, for example. Should we look at fantasy football sites because they just repackage NFL stats? In this situation, we should just let AT&…

> In this situation, we should just let AT&T/Bell dictate all things internet, since they laid the foundation with their lines. ... at a time when the government guaranteed their profits. I think that's an important point to remember when a business built off of years of government-granted monopoly starts complaining about government regulation.

The monopoly was granted in return for all sorts of regulations (namely, universal service). The monopoly protection is gone now, so presumably should the regulations be gone.

Moreover, how relevant is the pre-1980's POTS infrastructure to this whole debate? How many Netflix customers are on DSL that hasn't been rebuilt since the breakup?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#70

Post by mseebach »

llamadrom wrote: post #55
mseebach wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't "ensure" it in the formal sense of the word, but in a system with actual competition, actors generally can't get away with "charging ransom".

This assertion is often put forth by naive Libertarian types, but it's simply not true. Cartels routinely emerge in markets with high barriers to entry. This happens even if there are laws against direct coordination and those laws are obeyed. The market players aren't dumb, and they realize that if the barrier to entry is high enough, they can maximize profits by simply not competing. Price wars are terrible things…

Even if I'm completely wrong and you're completely right, this level of discourse is simply not acceptable.
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