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Dune Genesis (1980)

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Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#61

Post by jerf »

jerf wrote: post #27
ekianjo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the Herbert sequels are not really that good. I'd recommend new readers to stop at Dune to avoid destroying their image of the Universe.

My stock recommendation is: The first book is a classic for a reason. However, if you don't like it, stop here. The subsequent books will not change your opinion. In fact Herbert may really not be your thing. (He has a certain unique feel to his writing, I think.) The rest of the first trilogy is definitely more hurried and rather than "justifiably classic" are merely pretty OK if you like that sort of thing. A lot o…

Oh, yeah, one more thing: If you're a big fan, you may want to consider the Dune Encyclopedia: http://www.amazon.com/Dune-Encyclopedia-Authorized-Masterpie...

It was rendered non-canonical by either God Emperor or Chapterhouse, but it's full of interesting stuff if you're the sort that can get stuck on a Wiki-walk. This is probably the most monetarily valuable book in my meager collection, picked up without knowledge of its rarity from a library book sale.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#62

Post by bronson »

the_af wrote: post #58
chiph wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highlander: "There can be only one"

A shame there were no Highlander sequels in any shape or form. Imagine if they had decided to be inconsistent and that there were, after all, more immortals after MacLeod won the prize. Or something cheesy like immortals actually being aliens, I dunno. Thankfully this didn't happen in Earth-1, where I live.

Also the Matrix. A sequel to either of these movies would be phenomenal.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#63

Post by alphabetam »

tspiteri wrote: post #4
JonnieCache wrote: post #3

It probably doesn't need to be said here, but if you haven't read Dune, stop what you're doing and read Dune. If like me you enjoyed the idea of LoTR but found the writing irritating, you're going to bloody love Dune. Don't worry too much about the many sequels, they can get a bit too weird. The first book stands alone just fine.

Don't worry too much about the many sequels, they can get a bit too weird. The first book stands alone just fine. True, but if you decide to read the sequels, only read the Frank Herbert sequels. The Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels are more like poor fanfiction than sequels.

I haven't read their _sequels_, but I have read their _prequels_ before reading the original dune and I found them decent. Not exceptional, but not bad at all. Slightly different from the original, though, which might be why they are off-putting to many people who have read Dune first.

(I am reading them in the order suggested here: http://www.amazon.com/Dune-Saga-Chronological-Order/lm/1COAD...)

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#64

Post by ctdonath »

chiph wrote: post #33
chernevik wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dialogue with my son made me proud of my parenting: Me: "Godfather I?" He: "One of the greatest movies of all time." Me: "Godfather II?" He: "Transcendental. The rare sequel better than the original." Me: "Godfather III?" He: "Never happened. An elaborate hoax."

Highlander: "There can be only one"

Highlander was a fine guy film that ended with total closure. Highlander 2: The Sicken...(er, 'scuse me)...Quickening totally mangled the first story, ignored the closed ending, and carried it on in bizzare ways; the Director's Cut reportedly edits the movie severly, effectively turning it into another film. Highlander 3: The Sorcerer formally apologized for the previous film and discarded it, and said of the first film's ending "no, wait, we apologize, the story isn't finished after all" so they could present some more gratuitous sword fights and beheadings. Then there is Highlander: Endgame which rolls back the story to about 2/3rds through the first film, ignored the other two, picked up the TV series (no comment), and tried to end the first story a fourth way...but it's not done, because of the Hollywood need for a happy ending which makes no sense and opens the door for (retch) a fifth sequel/ending; but that's the Producer's Cut version, which is somewhat different from the theatrical release. This movie, in and of itself, is an OK B-movie; in context of the serieses (plural plural), it's another round of "why are they doing this to me (the viewer)" and six profoundly different endings to one otherwise good story. I suggest you watch the fine cult hit film Highlander, and if anyone suggests you watch any sequels consider following Connor McLeoud's example upon them.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#65

Post by cesarbs »

jerf wrote: post #27
ekianjo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the Herbert sequels are not really that good. I'd recommend new readers to stop at Dune to avoid destroying their image of the Universe.

My stock recommendation is: The first book is a classic for a reason. However, if you don't like it, stop here. The subsequent books will not change your opinion. In fact Herbert may really not be your thing. (He has a certain unique feel to his writing, I think.) The rest of the first trilogy is definitely more hurried and rather than "justifiably classic" are merely pretty OK if you like that sort of thing. A lot o…

> Finally, if you make it this far, Chapterhouse and Heretics are once again quite fun reads and re-reads. But it can be hard to get this far in the first place.

I loved reading Heretics just a few weeks ago. It is definitely my second favorite book in the saga (the first one obviously being Dune). What I liked so much about it is that there's suddenly a change in setting: more technology, cities, etc. The characters are also great - Teg is by far my favorite character in the whole saga.

Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune really drag the story and it was hard getting past them on the first read, but the second time you read them - especially God Emperor - you see how packed with insights those books are.

Chapterhouse was ok, but that cliffhanger at the end...

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#66

Post by Hasu »

I have never understood why Frank Herbert isn't enshrined as the 20th century's best science fiction author, since that's exactly what he was.

He always gets overshadowed by Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, who are undoubtedly all very good. But Herbert's works have depth and timelessness that few other writers in any genre can match. The Dune series is genius, the ConSentiency series(only two novels and a short story or two, sadly) nearly reaches Dune's level, and there are portions of The Dosadi Experiment that exceed anything in Dune.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#67

Post by IgorPartola »

the_af wrote: post #60
IgorPartola wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I finished reading Dune recently. I did not enjoy it as much as I thought I would. My main problem with it was how predictable it was: gifted kid succeeds in everything he does. A question I have is whether I should read the two immediate sequels. Do they actually explore the whole "superheroes are bad" theme more? Would I get a better sense of the context for what Dune really was about? My first exposure to the D…

Like others have said, Dune somewhat subverts the typical "hero's journey". Where in the template for this kind of story the reluctant kid grows up to be the Chosen One almost by chance, in Paul's case it's mostly engineered to be this way. The Bene Gesserit were growing and expecting this kind of Chosen One, it just didn't happen exactly how they wanted it. The Fremen accepted Paul as their Chosen One precisely beca…

I gathered so much about his journey throughout the book, but the problem with this approach, to me, is that he doesn't really grow as a character. Paul gains new abilities, but his tone is the same at the beginning as it is at the end. No character really grows, it seems, except Feyd Rautha, which is kind of silly.

> Also, the emphasis on politics, and the crossover between feudal and SF tropes.

I wish there was more of an emphasis on this. The whole story is painted against a great backdrop of this struggle between the different houses, and the emperor. This is repeatedly mentioned and some story points rely on it, yet, there is no explanation as to how it came to be and how the system actually works.

I also cannot help but see plot holes. For example, why does the emperor not take complete control of the spice production? Has nobody in the universe except for Paul figured out that whoever controls the spice, controls everything? That they can hold it hostage? Given, that everyone relies on the spice, why hasn't anyone but the Fremen figured out where it comes from? It seems that the spice has been a huge part of literally everything that the noble houses, the spacing guild, the Bene Gesserit, etc. do. Yet nobody bothered to look beyond the spice fields and actually figure out all the stuff that it turns out the Fremen already knew.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#68

Post by the_af »

IgorPartola wrote: post #67
the_af wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others have said, Dune somewhat subverts the typical "hero's journey". Where in the template for this kind of story the reluctant kid grows up to be the Chosen One almost by chance, in Paul's case it's mostly engineered to be this way. The Bene Gesserit were growing and expecting this kind of Chosen One, it just didn't happen exactly how they wanted it. The Fremen accepted Paul as their Chosen One precisely beca…

I gathered so much about his journey throughout the book, but the problem with this approach, to me, is that he doesn't really grow as a character. Paul gains new abilities, but his tone is the same at the beginning as it is at the end. No character really grows, it seems, except Feyd Rautha, which is kind of silly. > Also, the emphasis on politics, and the crossover between feudal and SF tropes. I wish there was mor…

You have a point about Paul, though he arguably evolves in the following book.

The Emperor doesn't take control of spice production partly because of the Landsraad, which exists precisely to keep the ruling House in check, and partly because of the Spacing Guild, which is arguably the true power behind the scenes.

No House can truly do anything without the Spacing Guild because space travel is impossible without them. At the start of the Dune saga, the whole political universe depends on this equilibrium, which is strictly enforced. Navigators are, of course, aware of their dependence on the spice and of the importance of Arrakis.

The Fremen and what they represent is ignored because of racism. This is also a point of the book. Nobody wants to see what's in front of them. This is especially shown from the point of view of the Harkonnen, which only slowly begin to realize the parallels between the Fremen and the imperial Sardaukar.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#69

Post by bane »

nbush wrote: post #57
bane wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best part about Dune is that it's really one of those books that reveals different things every time you read it. It should be part of every serious literature course.

I'm sorry, but I have to challenge such a broad statement. The classification of literature is an awful game but Dune is hardly a default candidate for serious study, and I feel a view of literature with it near the top is unfortunately stunted. Just speaking as someone who has taken many of the courses you mention, although not an expert.

If nonsense like Pride and Prejudice makes it into a literature course, Dune at get above that low bar.

Re: Dune Genesis (1980)

#70

Post by Amezarak »

IgorPartola wrote: post #67
the_af wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others have said, Dune somewhat subverts the typical "hero's journey". Where in the template for this kind of story the reluctant kid grows up to be the Chosen One almost by chance, in Paul's case it's mostly engineered to be this way. The Bene Gesserit were growing and expecting this kind of Chosen One, it just didn't happen exactly how they wanted it. The Fremen accepted Paul as their Chosen One precisely beca…

I gathered so much about his journey throughout the book, but the problem with this approach, to me, is that he doesn't really grow as a character. Paul gains new abilities, but his tone is the same at the beginning as it is at the end. No character really grows, it seems, except Feyd Rautha, which is kind of silly. > Also, the emphasis on politics, and the crossover between feudal and SF tropes. I wish there was mor…

> I also cannot help but see plot holes. For example, why does the emperor not take complete control of the spice production?

To expand on what the sibling poster said, the Emperor cannot take complete control of spice production - the Guild would never allow it. He has what he thinks is necessary and sufficient control. Remember that it was the Emperor who gave stewardship of the planet to the Atreides, in collaboration with his lackeys, the Harkonnens, and that the Emperor and his allies had amassed huge stockpiles of spice while planning to intentionally disrupt spice production and thereby make the Atreides unpopular.

He could not assume further control than he had for a variety of reasons. One reason is the ecology of Dune - remember that most of the Fremen were so adapted to the environment that neither the Harkonnens nor the Emperor apparently even realized most of them existed, because they considered huge swaths of the planet to be uninhabitable, and for good reason. Let alone the desert itself, remember the huge storms and the sandworms were pretty frequently destroying even massive industrial equipment and killing people daily. (The Fremen were also involved, but it seems that this was downplayed and often attributed to the environment.) The second reason is that the Guild has a very specific political agenda that principally involved their access to spice and keeping the extent of their dependency on it a secret.

The Guild was totally aware the power that someone who controlled the spice would have - that's why they went to great lengths to prevent anyone from gaining total control over spice production and export. As you see at the end of Dune, the Guild have a very limited political agenda, but in the end, they hold real power in the Dune universe. The Emperor and the Landsraad are helpless without the Guild, and the Guild knows it.

Additionally, remember that the Fremen were paying huge bribes to the Guild to keep certain secrets.

> The whole story is painted against a great backdrop of this struggle between the different houses, and the emperor.

The Landsraad is not exactly in conflict with the Emperor. The Landsraad is subordinate to the Emperor and part of his power structure in a way that say, the Guild or the Bene Gesserit are not. The Landsraad and the Emperor control CHOAM, the prime economic mover and shaker, together. What the Landsraad would fear, if it came to pass, is if the Emperor tried to consolidate his power by taking out the Houses one by one, which he does not try until Dune (in part because he fears the consolidation of the Landsraad power under the Atreides), and then only cautiously under the Harkonnen banner. The Landsraad are perfectly content to go along with the Emperor as long as they believe he's not going after them.

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