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Is a Hard Life Inherited?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#61

Post by qu4z-2 »

frogpelt wrote: post #51

The message I get from these articles is if you have failed at life it wasn't because of your own decisions. What motivation is there to do any better? Because to me the real issue is if a person finds themselves in a less than ideal situation that they look for ways to improve rather than waiting on all of us to figure out how to change the system.

Sometimes you're so busy looking for ways to survive that improvement doesn't really even enter into it. Also, I'd imagine the whole "being poor sucks" would provide motivation to do better. Finally your embedded assumption that somehow being "motivated to do better" will fix the problem (ie it's their fault).

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#62

Post by norswap »

Dewie wrote: post #47
norswap wrote: post #31

From an European (Belgian, if you're interested) perspective, it's borderline shocking that these questions are so hotly debated. When I contrast the image I get by consuming American media and what I witness here, the contrast is astonishing. Social mobility seems to be much more prevalent here than in the states. Of course, the gap between "poors" and "rich" is much smaller. But I can legitimately say that everyone…

> From an European (Belgian, if you're interested) That's certainly more interesting than just the generic European . EDIT: I mean: saying that you are of a certain nationality is more specific, and therefore more interesting, than just saying that you are from somewhere on that continent!

Don't know why you are getting downvoted, it's a fair point. Belgium is known for welfare; however, I think that most countries in western Europe do not fall very far. I don't really know much about the situation in eastern Europe (say everything east of Germany, excluding Scandinavia).

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#63

Post by nitrogen »

zo1 wrote: post #43
ivoras wrote: post #24

I'm not sure if most of the commentators here are joking or just being too subtly sarcastic, but truly the best predictor of a person's success is the success of his parents during his formative years. It's not a hard-coded rule, but it's statistics: if, given two persons of equal age, gender and health, you would have to bet how they turn out, your best bet would be to look at their parents and assume the same will…

But at what point do we draw the line of responsibility? There are many examples of poor/struggling people that made the best of what they had and made sure that their children had a good start in life. Yes, my parents were poor and struggling. But they pushed through, made sacrifices and made sure that me and my sister had a good start in life. Free from the burdens that they bore. To me, the line of responsibility…

If you don't believe in dualistic free will, then responsibility lies entirely with factors beyond the control of the poor, thus there can be no personal blame.

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#64

Post by ASneakyFox »

What about the middle class thing where EVERYONE thinks they're middle class? If you ask some one who makes 30k they'll say they're middle class. If you ask some one who makes 130k they'll say the same thing.

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#65

Post by gretful »

Mz wrote: post #53
spindritf wrote: post #35

ONE delusion common among America’s successful people is that they triumphed just because of hard work and intelligence. The ability to work hard (conscientiousness) and intelligence are also heritable to a significant degree. The central supposed conflict between inherited privilege and innate qualities simply doesn't exist because our qualities are inherited[1]. This always surprises me when I read about privilege…

FWIW: I have intelligence and conscientiousness. What I don't have is physical stamina and mental focus. I was one of the trop three students of my graduating high school class. I have yet to have a successful paid career (I was a homemaker for a long time and full time mom and I was successful at those things but I am now divorced). One of the things that middle and upper class kids get is good medical care, good nu…

Hang in there! I'd say you've had a successful 1st career as a mom - and that's no easy task!

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#66

Post by zo1 »

_greim_ wrote: post #46
zo1 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at what point do we draw the line of responsibility? There are many examples of poor/struggling people that made the best of what they had and made sure that their children had a good start in life. Yes, my parents were poor and struggling. But they pushed through, made sacrifices and made sure that me and my sister had a good start in life. Free from the burdens that they bore. To me, the line of responsibility…

Even if responsibility lands on the individual, rather than background circumstances, it's still reasonable to try to figure out how to break the cycle, isn't it? It's possible to hold someone guilty, and still have empathy.

"It's possible to hold someone guilty, and still have empathy." Of course, that's called charity! And is probably a very integral part of the progress of our society. But, let's be honest, most people when they discuss these topics simply dismiss responsibility from the injured/suffering party and are very quick to offload it onto society.

It's kind of sad, really. Because at the end of the day, there are a lot of individuals who will always suffer no matter how much we help them (or how much money we throw at them). And then we go ahead, with our noble, but misguided consciences and tell them it's not their fault. Relieving them of the single greatest motivator for their own success, perhaps their last.

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#67

Post by zo1 »

rdam wrote: post #49
zo1 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at what point do we draw the line of responsibility? There are many examples of poor/struggling people that made the best of what they had and made sure that their children had a good start in life. Yes, my parents were poor and struggling. But they pushed through, made sacrifices and made sure that me and my sister had a good start in life. Free from the burdens that they bore. To me, the line of responsibility…

You were lucky enough to have parents who pushed through and made sacrifices. Not everyone is so lucky. That is exactly the point the article is making. You're blaming the children for having inadequate parents.

>"You're blaming the children for having inadequate parents."

Of course not. I'm blaming the children for having inadequate parents and forcing the same on to their own children! Quite a big difference.

Re: Is a Hard Life Inherited?

#68

Post by zo1 »

anon4 wrote: post #59
zo1 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at what point do we draw the line of responsibility? There are many examples of poor/struggling people that made the best of what they had and made sure that their children had a good start in life. Yes, my parents were poor and struggling. But they pushed through, made sacrifices and made sure that me and my sister had a good start in life. Free from the burdens that they bore. To me, the line of responsibility…

As my mother says: "I don't care which one of you is responsible, I want you both to stop fighting and clean up this mess you made, now".

Way to blame the victim. So bully does something, causes a fight, parental figure sees and intervenes... and finally, blames both of them for the resulting fight, compelling them both to take responsibility and fix the mess. That's horrible, I hope you didn't get beaten(child-abused) if you refused to clean up the mess.
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