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The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

foreignpolicy.com

61–70 of 74 posts

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#61
It seems to be expensive, but what would have been the alternative to JSF or to the F-35?

The trillion dollar budget was postulated by some already long beforehand. Bill Sweetman wrote that into his book ten years ago already: http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Fighter-Lockheed-Martin-Strik... Unfortunately, with this being what it is, nobody believes the companies' presented combat aircraft prices. Just a while ago, the French Dassault Rafale doubled in price, some time after winning a huge fighter order competition in India, and it's a plane that's been operational already for fourteen years!: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price...

Maybe two or three different aircraft could have been developed, and it would have been faster and cheaper in total - since each design could have been more straightforward, more specialized for its mission. Who knows? This is far from obvious to me. Pierre Sprey advocated this line. But even his favorite optimized light weight fighters were adapted to multiple roles and replaced many more specialized aircraft.

Another alternative would have been to develop nothing really new, just keep operating old airframes, maybe manufacture some minor updates (F-15, F-16 and Super Hornet are being manufactured). They don't have stealth, though some versions have some minor stealthiness. Russia and China are developing at least reasonably stealthy aircraft (PAK-FA, J-20, J-31). The F-22 is not manufactured but AFAIK the tooling is preserved. But it's a more specialized aircraft anyway. I think doing nothing would not have been a politically possible path.

Everybody complains but there aren't that many better directions. Some countries could at least buy European or Russian generation 4.5 fighters if they want to avoid JSF, but that's mostly it.

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#62
post #7

It would appear this nation's military is a fat, bloated welfare recipient, feeling entitled and too powerful for anyone to do anything about it, impoverishing the nation. We all know it has many brilliant and capable individuals and teams in it who can do great work, but the system is anything but. The money ultimately goes to people, meaning we are paying people to do unproductive work, though I'm sure plenty of it…

I'm a realist, so I understand and accept that the Pentagon's main goal is keep its budget healthy. What I don't understand is why can't we do that in a way that gets us good airplanes?

I'm a wary optimist. Trust, but verify. Hope, but plan for the worst. I don't understand enough to know whether we're living in a Pax Americana or a Pax McDonalds. I hope it's the spread of globalization and liberal democracy, but I'm willing to spend the money just in case it's actually the shadow of the American military machine that keeps our relative peace. If my fears are justified, however, it's our military machine, not our military budget that keeps nation-states polite.

I can be a ruthless critic. I'll buy spin (multi-role is cheaper) only as long as I don't think much about it. But, now I'm thinking about it. It's obvious that an F-35 is a joke. 2500 of them is less funny, but still not nearly as awe-inspiring as it could be.

But, I'm apparently naive. I don't understand why some ambitious politician can't take this opportunity to really do something of note. Why can't somebody take this political machine we've built, with contractors lined up in many states, and repurpose it to produce useful, best-of-breed airplanes? I would buy the spin that it's cheaper and easier to design four different planes each tasked do one job extremely well than it is to design one single plane to fill those four roles simultaneously. There is such a thing as the opposite of synergy. Somebody could coin a phrase here, sell the public something huge, and come out looking like a hero for making good on the money we're inevitably going to spend. Let the Pentagon have their budget. Let the politicians have their jobs. And let me have a military with the best equipment in the world.

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#63

... $399 billion could virtually end hunger in America. ... Or, you know, we could kill more innocent people halfway across the world. Yeah, let's do that. America!!!

This isn't Reddit. I don't come to HK to read memes or "jokes." Please contribute something more substantive. You could have made your point about hunger and priorities without it turning into an "America!!!" gag. Then maybe someone else would have replied and the conversation would have moved forward.

I'm not going to apologize for my use of a little bit of internet-flavoured comedy to make light of an otherwise absolutely horrifying situation.

As a dual US/CDN citizen myself, I really have to look at this and say 'Whoa. A country that I have pledged my allegiance to is, even as I type this, actively choosing to spend money on killing people outside of their country as well as it's own citizens, instead of helping the people inside of it's own country that are unfortunate bi-products of it's government and banking system's poor decision making over the last century.'

I work in theatre as well as software development, and in theatre we have two faces, a laughing face and a crying face. Because everything is a tragedy or a comedy, depending on how you look at it. I'm just choosing to use the smiley face. :O)

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#64
post #44

Obama runs the Whitehouse and has for 6 years, so is he responsible? It didn't take him long after signing on to fire the NASA administrator.

Obama is definitely partly responsible. This isn't a party political issue anyway, both the Democrats AND Republicans support this program and have for quite a while. As the article says contractors exist in 45 states, so that's 45 senators who have a vested interest in its future. This 10,000 pound gorilla has been around for quite a few years before Obama and while it would have been political suicide to try and ki…

You mean 90 senators (out of 100)

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#65
post #43
post #7

It would appear this nation's military is a fat, bloated welfare recipient, feeling entitled and too powerful for anyone to do anything about it, impoverishing the nation. We all know it has many brilliant and capable individuals and teams in it who can do great work, but the system is anything but. The money ultimately goes to people, meaning we are paying people to do unproductive work, though I'm sure plenty of it…

>> It would appear this nation's military is a fat, bloated welfare recipient This can also be said in regards to a large populace of Democratic voters.

[deleted]

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#66

War, the military industrial complex, and homeland security are our biggest money black holes our tax dollars go into and not things like food stamps. People need to start to get clued in... I would like to make sure Lockheed Martin gets mentioned as the incompetent manufacturer in this debacle.

I believe you are wrong about that. While defense spending is big, it's not the highest. Health and Human Services and Social Security are both significantly higher portions of the budget. Unless there's a bunch of "off the books" spending? You can easily see here in this extremely user-friendly document http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2... :-p

Well, the wars were off the books until Obama put them on but they are "over" now so that is money mostly already spent (like 1 trillion).

When I say black hole I mean money that is wasted. Health and Human Services and Social Security are things that benefit us while wars, our military, and homeland security not so much. Social Security for example is an entitlement that everyone pays into that has always run a surplus so it's paid for... Politicians raiding the fund is a different story.

Our bad foreign policy decisions of the last century are bleeding us dry. Wake up people! Ready for round three in Iraq?

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#67

War, the military industrial complex, and homeland security are our biggest money black holes our tax dollars go into and not things like food stamps. People need to start to get clued in... I would like to make sure Lockheed Martin gets mentioned as the incompetent manufacturer in this debacle.

I believe you are wrong about that. While defense spending is big, it's not the highest. Health and Human Services and Social Security are both significantly higher portions of the budget. Unless there's a bunch of "off the books" spending? You can easily see here in this extremely user-friendly document http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2... :-p

Food stamps =! social security. Also SS isn't an entitlement, I fucking paid into it, i should get something back.

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#68

It seems to be expensive, but what would have been the alternative to JSF or to the F-35? The trillion dollar budget was postulated by some already long beforehand. Bill Sweetman wrote that into his book ten years ago already: http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Fighter-Lockheed-Martin-Strik... Unfortunately, with this being what it is, nobody believes the companies' presented combat aircraft prices. Just a while ago, the…

The problem isn't just that the F-35 is multirole but is trying to cater to the various quirks of multiple services. I mentioned it upthread, but an example of this is the very shape of the aircraft was determined in large part due to the Marines' vertical take off requirement. This necessitated a huge lifting fan in the fuselage, which had major ramifications on the maneuverability of the aircraft and the pilot's visibility out of the cockpit. Then there are all the modifications made to the C variant to accommodate carrier landings for the Navy.

The end result is that you have an airframe that was meant to save money by being common between all three services which has ended up with a parts commonality of only 25-30%[1] and whose performance has suffered because of the requisite compromises made to chase that goal.

I think one of the other big things that gets lost in these conversations is that the F-35 was meant to be cheap and widely fielded. The problem is that the program's bloating to the point that they're getting too expensive to field in numbers that would replace the existing force.

The response is usually that the high tech gadgetry in these planes will save the day. That's problematic. This is going back to the F-22, but RAND ran a widely-circulated simulated conflict in the Straight of Taiwan a few years back[2]. The result was that the F-22s held their own... until they ran out of missiles and were overwhelmed by the sheer number of opposition planes that were being thrown at them.

So, basically, my answer to your question would be forget the super planes and focus on cheaper, more, and good enough. Accept that fighter, bomb truck, and stealth is a pick two proposition. Design something light, cheap, and modernized to fill the multirole capability of the F-16 today; it's very difficult to replace a $40M jet in the same kind of numbers with a $150M one. Supplement the F-22 with new production F-15SEs. Look into things like the Textron AirLand Scorpion to fill the permissive environment CAS role that the A-10C fills today.

KISS.

[1] http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/lightning-rod-f-35-fight...

[2] http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RA...

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#69
post #45

I recently called my senators and congressman about this issue. None of the staffers were able to provide me with their public opinions on the project. Two mentioned that they haven't received any calls on the matter. If you care about this issue, and are a US citizen, call ( http://www.contactingthecongress.org/ ) your elected officials.

This is by design. Lockheed first learned how to game congress with the B1B (another useless plane). Here's the recipe: Talk to the military, see what's giving them a hard-on these days. Get them to start coming up with a project to put on contract. Military issues Request for Information/Request for Proposal based on requirements you told them to use Contact any and all congressman. Let them know that you intend to…

>Lockheed first learned how to game congress with the B1B (another useless plane).

Well, except that the B1B was manufactured by Rockwell who have since been absorbed by Boeing.

Re: The Pentagon's $399 Billion Plane to Nowhere

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you are wrong about that. While defense spending is big, it's not the highest. Health and Human Services and Social Security are both significantly higher portions of the budget. Unless there's a bunch of "off the books" spending? You can easily see here in this extremely user-friendly document http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2... :-p

Food stamps =! social security. Also SS isn't an entitlement, I fucking paid into it, i should get something back.

No one said food stamps = social security but they both are social programs that benefit people.

Social Security is in fact an entitlement as in workers are "entitled" to their benefits by paying into the system. Republicans later smeared the word entitlement because it now also refers to welfare programs (entitled by law) so people get confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement

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