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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#61

Post by fidotron »

daw___ wrote: post #57
_glass wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any chance there will be more support for Dart on Android?[1] [1] More than https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Android

You may want to follow this thread: Support building native Android applications with Dart https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=19266

Would be neat if they had an adapter for the polymer stuff so that a "material" UI could be rendered in a webpage or with Android's native UI depending on the execution context and no changes to the app code (written in Dart). On the edge of possible, but a lot of work.

Re: Dart 1.5

#62

Post by munificent »

lmkg wrote: post #46
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

How well does Dart interact with JavaScript, especially libraries that are asynchronously loaded? I know that the Dart compiler is a whole-program optimizer, and I get the impression that Dart wants to own all the code on the page. In my line of work (web analytics), I have to use third-party JavaScript libraries in order to integrate tools onto my page, like Adobe Analytics (formerly Omniture SiteCatalyst) or IBM Co…

> How well does Dart interact with JavaScript, especially libraries that are asynchronously loaded?

I'm not the best person to ask about JS interop, but I know it's something that other people on the team put a lot of effort into.

> I know that the Dart compiler is a whole-program optimizer, and I get the impression that Dart wants to own all the code on the page.

dart2js likes to have access to all of the Dart code while it's compiling, so it can do global optimization, but as far as I know, that doesn't affect JS interop. Talking to JS is all dynamically dispatched at runtime, so the compiler doesn't really care about it.

(We can also do deferred loading of Dart code now too, though I don't know the details.)

> What's Dart's story for interacting with tools like that?

Beyond the general JS interop story, I don't know if we've done anything specific there. I believe you should be able to talk to JS code even if it's loaded much later.

Re: Dart 1.5

#63

Post by sethladd »

adrianlmm wrote: post #14
ben336 wrote: post #2

Is anybody using Dart for significant production code outside of Google? (Not mocking, genuinely curious to hear whats being done with it)

I use Dart in production, it has its advatages like: 1.- It is better than JavaScript, is like using C# with a litle mix of Java. 2.- It comes with its own libraries, no more underscore.js or other patch libraries that JS needs, it is already in the toolkit. 3.- It comes with the Dart Editor, where you can debug your code easily, for scalable projects I find this to be invaluable. 4.- It will run in all your browsers…

Thanks for the helpful feedback! The latest version of Polymer.dart removes the need for reflection at compile time, and our output is much smaller today. Curious when you last tried compiling a Polymer Dart app?

[disclaimer: I work for the Dart team.]

Re: Dart 1.5

#64

Post by munificent »

lukasm wrote: post #56
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart? I'd like to Dart to happen. What worries my is that Dart has Java EE mentality. Hipster programmers won't touch it and lack of traction may kill the project. What's the solution? Performance may be a great USP. Rewrite Gmail in Dart, so tools like Streak, Rapportive and other extensions won't kill the performance.

> Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart?

We aren't planning it, we've already done it. Dart comes with a command-line VM with a full-featured (IO, networking, etc.) set of libraries[1].

The performance is quite good and getting better[2], from what I understand.

[1]: https://api.dartlang.org/apidocs/channels/stable/dartdoc-vie... [2]: https://www.dartlang.org/performance/io/

Re: Dart 1.5

#65

Post by sethladd »

lukasm wrote: post #56
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart? I'd like to Dart to happen. What worries my is that Dart has Java EE mentality. Hipster programmers won't touch it and lack of traction may kill the project. What's the solution? Performance may be a great USP. Rewrite Gmail in Dart, so tools like Streak, Rapportive and other extensions won't kill the performance.

Hi! The Dart VM does run on the command line, and can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, web sockets, and more. The Dart VM is an asynchronous light-weight server. I don't think Dart has a Java EE mentality. Far from it. :)

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team.]

Re: Dart 1.5

#67

Post by munificent »

macspoofing wrote: post #47
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Dart in Chrome? Dart on Android? Will the Dart IDE look correctly on Windows 8 high-dpi devices? (I know that's partially an Eclipse problem) In fact, what is the future of Dart? Is it just a complement to browser-based JavaScript?

> Dart in Chrome?

We're working on it! Having two language virtual machines with objects that can contain references to each other is quite technically challenging. There's a bunch of work to be done to address that[1]. Along the way, we're working with the larger Chrome team to address any other requirements they have.

> Dart on Android?

The Dart VM does run on Android right now [2]. My understanding is that the performance is impressive relative to Dalvik/ART, though don't quote me on that.

[1]: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink... [2]: https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Android

> Will the Dart IDE look correctly on Windows 8 high-dpi devices?

Aside from the splash screen, it looks nice and sharp on my retina Mac.

> In fact, what is the future of Dart? Is it just a complement to browser-based JavaScript?

We're working to make it a comprehensive web language, both client and server-side.

Re: Dart 1.5

#68

Post by kasperset »

spankalee wrote: post #53
kasperset wrote: post #7

I would like to use it but Javascript Frameworks and libraries are being developed so rapidly that it gets difficult to choose Dart and plus it is yet to mature. I may be wrong.

Dart's been very stable for a while now, and has a really good library ecosystem already. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about JavaScript frameworks evolving rapidly, just go with anything the supports Web Components. In JavaScript that would be Polymer, X-Tags or Bosonic. In Dart that's Polymer. Or, in either you can write directly to the platform APIs without a library. In my mind there is BWC and AWC: Befor…

I have been looking at Polymer library and it looks promising.

Re: Dart 1.5

#69

Post by _random_ »

munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

What is Google's vision for Dart going forward? Why is it not a primary language for Android?

I really like Dart. Google is pretty much the only company trying to break the tyranny of JS in browsers.

(e.g. Microsoft clearly said that they are betting on C# and .NET as their main offering for everything - would be nice if Google was capable of this sort of direct messages)

Re: Dart 1.5

#70

Post by macspoofing »

azakai wrote: post #60
macspoofing wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As things currently stand, Dart compiles to JavaScript, which is exactly the right way to do it That was never going to change. The idea, as far as I understand it, is for Dart to be executed natively where there is a Dart VM. Where there isn't, the dart2js output would be executed. The DOM itself would be unchanged. I think that's reasonable. In fact, more than reasonable, that's just a good idea.

The danger is that the VM has different semantics (for example, integer overflow) than dart2js code. If the same dart code sometimes runs in JS and sometimes in the dart VM, people are going to hit weird bugs. Also, if it is possible to ship dart code by itself - without the JS fallback - then we are going to see sites that don't bother with the JS fallback, and those sites are only going to work in chrome. For both…

A lot of those objections could have been applied to SPDY, a protocol google developed unilaterally and initially was only supported in Chrome and Google sites. The end result was that everybody else got a regular experience while Google Service Chrome users got a better one. Other sites started including SPDY, and then browsers got in on it as well. Seemed to have worked out well.

I don't see how Dart would be any different. You can cook up worst-case hypothetical scenarios in which Dart-only sites exist because the developer was OK with cutting off half his customers, and was too lazy to generate the js output (it's not like there are vendor-specific prefixes, and even technologies like WebGL, or WebRTC that don't work universally in all browsers).

>For both of those reasons, the dart VM is somewhat worrying from the perspective of the openness of the web.

In the absolute "worst" case, Dart (an ECMA standardized language at that point) becomes very popular and forces other vendors to include a Dart VM. I'm willing to live in such a world. More likely, Dart becomes a complement to JavaScript when it comes to building RIAs in the browser (because JS is really really bad when it comes to writing and maintaining big codebases), though JS still reigns as King of the Web.

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