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Be Nice Or Leave

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Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#61

Post by protonfish »

Everyone is throwing around "nice" like it is a well-defined term and not a fluff word. Let's try to define it a little better.

In my experience, there are 3 types of "nice". One is where somebody is subservient to you. Another is when a person is polite and tells you what you want to hear. The other is where somebody is honest and can be counted on to do what they promise.

I propose that you cannot be either #1 or #2 and #3.

A subservient doormat may seem great, but don't forget that you are not the only person they will grovel to. They will follow the most dominant person, and you can't count on it being you forever. They are cowards that cannot be trusted.

#2, pulling no punches, is a two-faced liar. They are the primary suspects for back-stabbing. Being "nice" is used as a tool to gain your trust.

#3 can be rude and abrasive. If they are angry with you, they will act angry with you. They will tell you the truth, even if it hurts your feelings.

Being rude and being duplicitous are almost always opposites, but both can be described as being "not nice." If I had a beach house, I'd like people to be the #2 type of nice. My goal there would be to relax, so please don't burst my obliviousness bubble. But when I get back to work I'd rather have my allys be #3.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#62

Post by bowlofpetunias »

I've found that the people that seem the nicest are the worst people to do business with. Niceness is often mistaken for not telling the whole truth.

Also, many of those nice people often disappear when the shit hits the fan, because they don't want to be seen bringing bad news. That doesn't fit with the "nice" image they have of themselves.

All things being equal I would rather do business with an honest asshole than a nice person I cannot trust.

Niceness is overrated. Not screwing people over and being "nice" are two very different things.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#63

Post by palebluedot »

jacquesm wrote: post #60
palebluedot wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not my intent at all, and I certainly don't think of it as calculating. I think you are conflating a quote highlighting a benefit of being nice (or really, the dangerous of being ruthless), with describing the moral reason to be nice. Naturally character is better highlighted by what you do that has no tangible reward, and done in the dark, where you think no one will see it. And being nice, and compassionate…

I think it revolves around 'acting nice' vs 'being nice' but the words escape me to articulate the difference any clearer than that.

I think I understand what you are saying, and you are right, it is difficult to find the exact words to express it. But I think you articulated it well. I just wanted to highlight that my intent was not to promote the idea of being artificially nice :)

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#64

Post by neurotech1 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #16

Sounds very American; like the server in a resteraunt being overly nice, making those of us who aren't used to the wallmart greeter style uncomfortable. Cut the bull; I would rather people be more honest than be more nice (and if they are trying too hard, it's easy to tell). It's amazing how a bit of bluntness automatically influences me and how much niceness projection makes me sick.

I'm not originally from America, but at family gatherings everyone wants to be "nice"... instead of discussing how they feel.

IMHO Fred Wilson's point is basically "Don't be a jerk" but he doesn't seem like the person who avoid saying what needs to be said (eg. This idea isn't viable) just to be nice. There is a appropriate way to convey criticism, and then there is being a jerk. Avoid the latter.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#65

Post by dhimes »

protonfish wrote: post #61

Everyone is throwing around "nice" like it is a well-defined term and not a fluff word. Let's try to define it a little better. In my experience, there are 3 types of "nice". One is where somebody is subservient to you. Another is when a person is polite and tells you what you want to hear. The other is where somebody is honest and can be counted on to do what they promise. I propose that you cannot be either #1 or #…

I believe the conversation is about being like #3, but without being rude and abrasive. It's possible. Being honest and reliable does not excuse rudeness and abrasiveness. In my experience, rudeness and abrasiveness are indicative that the person has not had to/been able to grow up. Perhaps they have extreme talent. Perhaps they have lived a life of extreme focus. Perhaps their moms still look after them. The reason doesn't much matter.

#s 1 and 2 are bullshit.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#66

Post by opendais »

rayiner wrote: post #31

Here's the thing about being not nice: you can usually get away with it if you're really exceptional, but if you ever misstep, nobody will want to help you out, and some may gleefully put the screws to you. Just in the last couple of years, a couple of acquaintances that had a reputation for being not nice have stumbled career-wise, and unsurprisingly no one was there to lend a hand. Honestly, I was shocked how littl…

It is alot like Diplomacy. You want to be honorable/nice until you are playing for the final outcome of your career, then you stop playing nice.

The CEO at one of the places I've worked basically screwed over 80+ people to get his retirement package [sold the company; his equity was worth millions] and they blindly trusted him right up until the day he did it. Those 80 people were laid off shortly after and the jobs were moved some place cheaper and/or into the buying company.

I think the thing is the "dumb ones" stop playing nice before it is the final round of their career and they have years/decades for it to catch up with them.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#67

Post by minikites »

wallflower wrote: post #11

Neil Gaiman “You get work however you get work, but keep people keep working in a freelance world (and more and more of todays world is freelance), because their work is good, because they are easy to get along with and because they deliver the work on time. And you don’t even need all three! Two out of three is fine. People will tolerate how unpleasant you are if your work is good and you deliver it on time. People…

This is a great, straightforward summary of something I always hazily suspected in the back of my mind. Thank you for sharing.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#68

Post by oinksoft »

pjmorris wrote: post #6

I spent a long time in the South Florida IT job market. In an area with millions of people and thousands of companies, it never ceased to amaze me how many people in the field knew each other. One of the key factors in job-hunting, then, was your reputation. If you did good work and people liked working with you, there was usually something available. If either of those things wasn't true, life was more difficult. A…

I'm not going to lie, this sounds like hell. Places like that make outcasts of anybody who makes the rest "look bad" by "working too hard." It's nice to be valued for your technical skills when you consider the alternative.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#69

Post by drpgq »

oinksoft wrote: post #68
pjmorris wrote: post #6

I spent a long time in the South Florida IT job market. In an area with millions of people and thousands of companies, it never ceased to amaze me how many people in the field knew each other. One of the key factors in job-hunting, then, was your reputation. If you did good work and people liked working with you, there was usually something available. If either of those things wasn't true, life was more difficult. A…

I'm not going to lie, this sounds like hell. Places like that make outcasts of anybody who makes the rest "look bad" by "working too hard." It's nice to be valued for your technical skills when you consider the alternative.

Well it is South Florida. I worked with a German software company that for strange reasons opened their US office in Miami. We had a terrible time getting people, although a lot of that was on us. We eventually moved it somewhere else and things were a lot smoother.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#70

Post by [deleted] »

matwood wrote: post #44
sejje wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a ridiculous way to make a point. Being blunt and calling someone a "fucking idiot" are not the same thing.

You're right that I was projecting my personal experiences. The people who I have worked with who called themselves blunt and honest were the same people who never defended an idea and instead resorted to calling everyone else idiots. Saying you are blunt is often a way to sound superior or right when being rude to someone. Very few problems are as straight forward as 1+1=2, which is easy to state bluntly. Most probl…

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