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#61

Most homelessness charities in the UK subscribe to the view that you are not helping by giving money to beggars. There's even an extensive campaign called Killing with Kindness http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin... As someone who used to work in this sector, I no longer give money to beggars. Support the charities instead.

Thanks for that link - I was looking for it to reply to this trail.

I completely agree with others' points about being non-judgmental. However, the point I see is to _help_, and (statistically) that doesn't mean giving money directly.

(Over the autumn/winter, I volunteer with Hackney Winter Night Shelter (http://www.hwns.org.uk/) and chat to workers from Thames Reach quite often.)

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#62
Personally, it's my policy to give money to anyone who asks unless they are drunk. I know that a lot of beggars are simply trying to take advantage of people like me, but on the other hand there is a lot of people who really need help. I'm not in a position to sort them out, and I'm most certainly not going to judge them. If I'm better off then they are, why not give a few $?

One more thing. Sometimes I see a lot of people asking for money for a "bus ticket" or "gas" because "their car broke down" I always tell them that I know they are full of shit, and that they should change their line. they will still get few $, as I prefer that they ask for money instead of robbing someone else.

And in all honesty, do beggars do anything different than your average sales person? Instead of a product they are selling their poverty. If they good at doing that why not reward them :)

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#63
If You live in Indonesia, especially in Jakarta or any big city, there is a law not to give beggars money. Why? because they are lie to you. They can earn salary more than a bank branch manager[1]. And so many people like them and organized very well.

If I'm in your position, I think I will give them snack or meal.

[1] http://www.bubblews.com/news/727796-woo-the-income-of-the-be...

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#64

I stopped giving money to "beggars" long ago. I usually help them by buying them what they need. I go with them to whichever close market or restaurant and buy them what they really need, I don't usually put a money limit but rarely goes over 20 bucks with a nice food basket. Part of these process is also listening to their stories, sometimes you can even hire them for some tasks and I usually tell them to help other…

I have heard a lot of people say that they do this, but I have never seen someone actually do it, nor have I heard a second-hand report of someone doing it. I'm not saying that you're not telling the truth, but I am saying that most people who say that they give food actually give nothing (neither money nor food), but tell their friends and random message boards that they give food, because it avoids looking miserly…

I've done it a couple of times. One guy asked for deodorant and food, so I walked with him to 7-11 to get deodorant, then across the street to McDonalds. And like the GP, you can talk with them along the way. Sometimes they don't want food. One homeless lady in my neighborhood (who recently passed away) refused the coffee we bought for her one cold morning. My wife had a few conversations with her and discovered that she like writing in notebooks--she had lots of them. So we bought her a few new notebooks and pencils. She didn't want food or help from anyone.

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#65
I have three verses for you.

He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will He pay him again. Pro 19:17

The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. Pro 22:9

"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38

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#66
post #57

I don't give to charities or homeless people. I live by the old saying, "Charity begins at home." If I can afford to help strangers then I can afford to help my family and friends, who are more important to me.

I don't really get your second paragraph. If you can afford to help strangers, then you can afford to help your friends. What point are you trying to make? I'm not sure. And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only? My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you…

Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious.

Additionally if you want to reason in a framework of debts, then you probably owe the most to your friends and family. You owe your entire existence directly to your parents -- it's hard to top that! Might as well stop there and just accept you have some unquantifiable amount of direct debt to the family who raised and protected you and the friends who spent time with you freely as opposed to doing something else. You can try to talk of indirect debts owed to and by "society" etc. but those quickly become spaghetti and in my opinion nonsensical. They're diffused and for some groups entirely non-existent, their lifespan is indefinite (you owe a part of your existence to all the warriors on whatever side of the conflicts your victorious (where victory means they could reproduce or their existing children were spared) ancestors took part in!), it's usually very unclear just how much is owed to whom, if it's even quantifiable, and how or if one can repay, and if you allow counterfactuals (like indirectly owing part of your existence to anyone who has had ill-thoughts toward your mother while she was pregnant or you during your life, but who didn't act on them) it becomes ever more ridiculous. And this is just as a reasoning framework -- can such a ridiculous construct actually motivate people to donate to some charity feeding starving kids in Africa and generate warm-fuzzy feelings of similar magnitude to gifting and helping out friends and family?

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#67
post #6

I suppose it depends on where you live. In my city (Cape Town) beggars can make up to $400 a week at certain high-traffic spots. People who give them money are enabling them. Also, in my city certain organisations exist to help the homeless and IMO it's better to donate to these groups instead. In many places in South Africa you are encouraged NOT to give money to beggars. http://giveresponsibly.co.za/ http://www.cap…

That's quite a lot of money (assuming you mean USD and not ZAR). Do you have a source for that figure? Is that an average, or is it the largest amount that one person has ever made?

That's the largest amount that I've heard of. It was from someone who begged at the Goodwood intersection near Libertas a few years ago over the December period.

A survey was done last year and it found that on average white beggars earn about R172 a day. But it's not uncommon in busy areas to net over R1000 in spots especially if there are a lot of tourists.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/White-beggars-make-R1...

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#68
I think this is best handled by local government. They can organize this better than individuals. They can provide the professional support and care that is necessary. The city I live in provides homeless people with a place to sleep, they provide them with warm meals, a place to shower and wash clothes. They also provide clean syringes and anti-conception, they provide books and newspapers to read, facilities to exercise. Maybe most important, they provide advice and counselling and give people a way to get things back on track, if they want to take it.

The national government provides them with monthly income (welfare). Which I will agree isn't much, but should cover the absolute basic necessities, especially combined with all the other help available. The local government also helps people to actually receive this money, to prevent the bureaucratic nonsense of homeless people needing to supply an address to apply for welfare.

To accomplish all of this, we pay a relatively high tax. But many people still give quite a bit of money to their favorite charities.

Of course, all of this requires the homeless person to cooperate. The system handles most of cases quite well, there aren't many beggars around, despite being a popular tourist destination. The groups who are not covered fall mainly in the categories: criminals, drug addicts, people with psychological problems, homeless by choice or lifestyle. For each of these groups I feel giving them money is a bad idea, but I hope they all find the help they need.

So no, I don't give money personally to beggars on the street. Yes, I happily pay tax and support charitable organisations.

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#69
post #57

I don't give to charities or homeless people. I live by the old saying, "Charity begins at home." If I can afford to help strangers then I can afford to help my family and friends, who are more important to me.

I don't really get your second paragraph. If you can afford to help strangers, then you can afford to help your friends. What point are you trying to make? I'm not sure. And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only? My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you…

The second part means that if I have enough money that I could potentially give it to a charity, I won't. I will buy my children something, or I will help my friends in need.

> Why not focus on yourself only? Because I will help those important to me, that I care about, and/or are my responsibility.

Homeless people and charities for every animal, nationality, and disease in this world, can not ALL be my responsibility. Another point that I think about a lot, I can not justify giving to just one charity and not to all charities. So I give to none.

I realise that my opinions may be unpopular but I have no problem with that.

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#70

As I commented earlier, I ALWAYS give and I NEVER judge. I do this because I'm a Latter-Day Saint[1] and God explicitly spells out in the Book of Mormon[2] how we should respond in such a situation: Succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to peris…

I wonder if Elohim would accept increasing one's tithe a bit as sufficient repentance. While I dropped Mormonism after I left childhood, I still find little thought patterns in myself like wanting to give by default that I think are most simply explained by my upbringing in a smallish (~13,000 to ~26,000 over my first 10 years) city in Utah and around a close-by and religiously-involved extended family, plus cub/boy scouts.

When I see bums nowadays I think I should always give to them, but two beliefs have saved me from letting guilt get to me since about 99% or more of the time I don't give. (Especially if I'm in a bum-heavy area like Vancouver or Seattle or if I can quickly rationalize it away by the fact I don't usually carry cash or finding a place to buy a banana or whatever would be out of my planned way.) First is my relative lack of spare money since I've only recently finished college and don't have a nest egg (I do believe in paying myself first), second is my belief in optimizing charity (see the GiveWell comment). Every time I see a bum and don't give, I try to make a small mental note to donate an additional $5-$10 to my chosen non-profit at some point in the future. I've got a few hundred dollar backlog right now due to financial constraints (fortunately I don't see too many bums in my area), but this has worked out in the past. Sometimes I do give anyway, and I do feel good, and it's not just the feeling of guilt relief. Though I feel a lot better helping people who are trying to help themselves, I do judge, and I feel best helping friends and some family especially when they don't ask. In the end I'm glad when I can live with my decisions and am able to "repent" mistakes not for fear of perishing forever but because they were mistakes that I eventually recognized as such.

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