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It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

hackingdistributed.com

61–70 of 154 posts

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#61

Their Bitcoin is broken argument doesn't really seem to work. I agree that something needs to be done to stop huge amounts of pooling but this seems to be too alarmist. The initial Bitcoin is Broken post is at http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/ and a counterpoint is at https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/bitcoin-isnt-so-br... .

The counterpoint from my colleague Ed Felten is based on a flawed understanding of how mining pools work and how pool participants are rewarded.

Explained here: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/08/fairweather-mining/

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#62
post #60
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand now. That would still be a bit of a tricky position because it isn't so much 51% when you commit the fraud that is important it is the period following the fraud. How detectable would such an action be? Wouldn't other systems be able look at the block and say "it's verified, but it don't look right to me"

You'd see that every single block was mined by the same pool.

That doesn't mean a 51% attack happened, it just means someone got 51% of the network hash rate.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#63
post #51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could theoretically mine your own chain from the genesis block right?

That won't work due to checkpoints and even if it did work it would be the equivalent of nuking the entire Bitcoin ecosystem. It would be more profitable to do something like extending the current blockchain but charge 1% transaction fees.

Interesting. For the benefit of others unfamiliar with this.

There is a hardcoded list of checkpoint blocks in the Bitcoin client. Any new chain starting before the last checkpoint will be rejected.

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1061/can-a-51-at... https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3114/which-block...

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you using BTC in the first place? The US Fed and US Government has no reason to act dishonestly. The value of the dollar relies on us trusting the US Government / US Fed to protect it. If switching over to BTC means "trusting GHash.io"... then nothing has changed.

The difference is that if GHash.io launches an attack, miners have the choice to move to another pool. If the US government inflates the currency (yet again) there is nothing to do.

If GHash.io launches a "no one else can mine" attack, then there won't be any other pools to move to.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_... * Prevent some or all other miners from mining any valid blocks

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd see that every single block was mined by the same pool.

That doesn't mean a 51% attack happened, it just means someone got 51% of the network hash rate.

An honest miner with 51% of the hash rate would only mine 51% of the blocks (example: https://blockchain.info/blocks ); an attacker would mine every single block.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#66
post #26

>GHash [...] just reached 51% of total network mining power today. Is this official? Seems somewhat surreal... Not really invested in this but at the very least I'd expect some posts along the lines of "Pool X is fast approaching 50%...BTC in danger". Not "51%...game over".

A couple days back they were at 48% or 49%. It's not that big a surprise.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#67
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice ad hominems you've got there. >In fact, the paper just formalized some concerns discussed in the mining community for years. This is false. Discussed here: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/09/no-you-dint/ >the "Bitcoin lunatic fringe" this author mocks has been right about the pool(s) having such power refraining from destructive (and self-bankrupting) next steps. No. The Bitcoin lunatic fringe was adamant…

I think your track record of alarmism and disrespect to non-academics is relevant, but even if you classify it 'ad hominem', you've earned it with your own prolific slurs of critics. I've addressed your continued "no-you-dint" willful-blindness about earlier analysis elsewhere... including on your own blog at ( http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/14/response-to-feedbac... ). You failed to discover (and thus footnot…

[deleted]

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice ad hominems you've got there. >In fact, the paper just formalized some concerns discussed in the mining community for years. This is false. Discussed here: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/09/no-you-dint/ >the "Bitcoin lunatic fringe" this author mocks has been right about the pool(s) having such power refraining from destructive (and self-bankrupting) next steps. No. The Bitcoin lunatic fringe was adamant…

I think your track record of alarmism and disrespect to non-academics is relevant, but even if you classify it 'ad hominem', you've earned it with your own prolific slurs of critics. I've addressed your continued "no-you-dint" willful-blindness about earlier analysis elsewhere... including on your own blog at ( http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/14/response-to-feedbac... ). You failed to discover (and thus footnot…

To the contrary, we've been far more respectful and accommodating to the Bitcoin fringe than merited, and certainly far more than the other way around. After all, we took a fair amount of abuse for simply pointing out an objective weakness that is part of the protocol. This, despite the fact that we proposed a fix for it.

Perhaps you've not read our final paper. It doesn't just footnote, but actually cites the prior discussion.

And anyone who reads the previous discussion can see that our paper:

* shows a more extensive attack than the one described there, one that works,

* performs a full analysis of the revenue to be obtained from that attack, and characterizes that revenue as a function of attacking pool size and attacking pool's ability to control information flow in the network,

* shows that Bitcoin is not incentive-compatible,

* shows that, even under the best of circumstances (i.e. the attacker has terrible network connectivity, no Sybils, no control over information propagation and loses to the honest miners every single time), defending against the attacker requires at least 2/3rds of the network to be honest.

Perhaps the biggest giveaway that we did something differently is that THE BITCOIN TALK FORUMS CONCLUDED THAT THEIR ATTACK WOULD NOT WORK, WHEREAS WE SHOWED THAT OURS WOULD.

You're making things up when you imply that we're claiming that 51% is an "unsurvivable crisis." To the contrary, the article very clearly says that the Bitcoin economy remains unaffected, and that the Bitcoin price is also unaffected.

We have been trying to improve the Bitcoin system since day 1. I realize that you're part of the original brigade, and that also explains your ad hominems here. I urge you to elevate the discussion.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#69
And down it goes again: https://bitcoinity.org/markets

In the previous crisis it was all based on trust ("it was just a bad player, trust will return to the market"). Now we've a doomsday scenario and what seems a serious flaw in Bitcoin.

Feels like a chapter out of The Foundation books.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#70
post #25

A hash pool at 51% is big news. If this isn't corrected soon, BTC is doomed to fail.

You're assuming that someone with a significant investment in the space would act dishonestly. That's the only reason BTC fails as the result of something like this. Seem like MAD to me, if they were to act dishonestly they would destroy their own investment and profit potential.

GHash.io already have acted dishonestly when they had a large but substantially sub-51% share - they launched a bunch of double spending attacks that effectively stole money from a Bitcoin gambling service.
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