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Startup vs. Corporate Life

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Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#61
post #17

> People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days. I think only in America would somebody say 50 hour weeks don't count as working you hard. Also, the average US working week is 35 hours, 37 in "information" industries: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm The fact is…

> > People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days.

> I think only in America would somebody say 50 hour weeks don't count as working you hard.

50 hour weeks are technically illegal in the European Union. EU Working Time Directive sets the max working week at 48 hours.

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#62
post #61
post #17

> People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days. I think only in America would somebody say 50 hour weeks don't count as working you hard. Also, the average US working week is 35 hours, 37 in "information" industries: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm The fact is…

> > People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days. > I think only in America would somebody say 50 hour weeks don't count as working you hard. 50 hour weeks are technically illegal in the European Union. EU Working Time Directive sets the max working week at 48 hours.

One of the multitude of examples how law in the European Union (on average) is geared towards protecting the individual (citizen) whereas in America it seems to be geared towards the needs of the (big) corporations.

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#63
Most startup vs corporate discussions all come down to a lot of anecdotal evidence that falls on both sides of the spectrum.

I have worked for several startups as well as several "big corps".

Without naming names; I'm just going to lay things out in a sort of chronological order.

Try to find something you love there are good and bad in both startups and big corporations.

Big Co #1)

-----------------

I was brought in as an intern; this was my first exposure to the professional IT world. I learned a lot, the job was secure, benefits were good, nice people all around too.

I was groomed for the spot I was interning and when a full time spot opened at one of our locations half way across the country I was asked to take that opening and move. While the job was secure, benefits were good, and the pay going into the full time position was pretty stellar I felt dissatisfied at the time and didn't want to get "stuck" working there the rest of my life, so instead I turned down the offer and jumped to startup #1.

Startup #1)

-----------------

This was a great environment, we were having a lot of fun. People were working a few extra hours, but nothing too bad. I really enjoyed it there; they really took off and these days they are now a "big corp".

Things probably would have been ok if I had stayed there instead of moving on to startup #2

Startup #2)

-----------------

Work environment was great; very small close knit team. I loved every minute of it right up until I was layed off unexpectedly and the company closed their doors virtually overnight due to their single largest contract being dropped with no notice due to a change in federal government funding policies.

Still not too jaded by things; both startups had been pretty good to me so far I moved on to

Startup #3)

-----------------

This place was just insane. People constantly were being asked to work more and more hours even while the company appeared to be growing quite quickly. Then the police showed up at the company to arrest the CEO; he subsequently went to prison for some type of loan fraud (I never looked into the exact details).

This didn't slow things down though; his equally honest son was there to take over the reins of the company. He demanded even more hours of everyone while trying to slash costs/spending everywhere. We were actually called into a company meeting where he pointed out the window at the parking lot and said, "At 8pm at night this parking lot is virtually empty. That is unacceptable. I expect people stay as long as it takes for our deadlines to be met."

Not long after that happened my boss came to me and told me that he was quitting because a sale of the company was imminent and that it was not going to be good for the employees. He advised that I get out early because the job market wasn't going to be able to absorb that many programmers after the sale. Things were pretty bad; I was already unhappy; so I took his advice and moved on to startup #4. Less than 3 months after I left the company was sold in a major acquisition where the purchasing company was after our high profile clientele. Almost the entire development staff was killed; our products were all killed; existing clients were moved to the product of our competitor who had bought us out.

Startup #4)

-----------------

Tiny little startup; one major investor. I worked way too many hours, but I enjoyed it. We never turned a profit and eventually ran out of money. Eventually they couldn't even make payroll. They were unable to pay me about $10K in salary that I was owed due to there being no money left. The end.

Startup #5)

-----------------

Holy dear god and anything that is holy; this place was a living hell on earth. Unfortunately, the job market at this point had turned really sour so I couldn't find a job to save my life. So I accepted a position with this terrible startup. I was working 60+ hours a week, every week. I was getting calls when I wasn't at the office to come in and put out fires even at 2 and 3am. It was incredibly terrible and awful.

I was finally fed up with startups. So I decided it was time to move on to big co #2

Big Co #2)

-----------------

This place was so good to me. The time off was great; I was used to working my ass off from startup culture so I was able to put in half as much effort as I normally had to and was still getting more done than the people around me. Meanwhile most of the development team was just coasting by and doing the bare minimum while complaining that they had too much to do.

Despite what experiences other people had; this worked out great for me. 3 years in a row I was promoted and given stellar raises for my outstanding contributions. I was traveling on the companies dime frequently; which I really enjoyed as well. All in all I really loved this place. I also did not feel like a "cog" here; I was making major contributions to key projects at this place.

Startup #6)

-----------------

So it was with some real hesitation that I left Big Co #2. At this point I was actively recruited, not by some recruiter, but by a former colleague to come and join startup #6. I out right refused to entertain the idea, but this colleague was very persistent and kept talking about better pay, fat stocks, etc... He promised me a wonderful company culture, etc... and as he said, "It can't hurt to at least come in and talk to the VP."

So I had a sit down with the VP at this very new, but very well funded, startup. I was offered a ridiculously huge pay increase as well as stock that would vest in 3 years. It turned out that the cost was my life. I was working 7 days a week including holidays; usually from 8 am until 1 or 2am. Despite what everyone says; yes more hours can me more work gets done. But at what cost; my health was on a steep decline due to lack of sleep primarily. I was feeling burned out as hell at the 2 1/2 year mark but pushed on since that stock vest was so close.

The CEO though was a complete megalomaniac asshole (and this is being nice) that never liked me from the beginning. Despite the fact that I personally implemented more projects and delivered on more customers than any other developer in the group; he fucked me out of my stocks by firing me 1 month prior to them vesting. I got zero out of that. The VP called me an personally apologized and told me how unfair it was and that he even he couldn't believe that the CEO would be that big of an asshole especially considering how much it was going to hurt the company to have me gone.

Big Co #3)

-----------------

At this point; as one might imagine I was rather jaded by the whole startup scene. So I went to another big co. I said going in; "I'm done. I'm taking a job at this big co and I'm going to stay there until I retire."

Most people sat around here pretending to be busy when they really didn't have enough work for all of the employees. There were no opportunities for me to advance because there really wasn't enough work to go around; and people who had work to do sure weren't going to share. They were going to hold on for dear life in case layoffs came they wouldn't be the ones to get hit. And those layoffs sure came. In my 3 years there 3 rounds of layoffs hit. Each time I was sweating that the executioner was going to come for each time. And each time I was granted a stay of execution.

I was bored out of my mind and worried that it was only a matter of time before I got cut.

I started interviewing at other places; I considered several startups, but due to my past experiences I turned them down. I was really selective and focused on trying to find a position that valued my time, my knowledge, presented challenges, and had stability.

Eventually I found a small team within another big co that really seemed to fit with what I was looking for.

Big Co #4)

-----------------

That brings us to today. I work on a small team within a huge organization. We create products that make a big difference. We value creativity, productivity, and personal life. This is a team, more than any that I've worked with in the past, where we like and respect each other and I like to see these people outside of work. Will I stay here until I retire? I can't answer that, but I can say I love my job. It is challenging and rewarding, but it allows me to have a personal life as well.

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#64
post #39

> People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days. If you're working at an early stage startup then in general nobody should "work you" at all, rather you'll work yourself 60+hours a week because you ACTUALLY HAVE SIGNIFICANT EQUITY in the company and therefor you want to see i…

'significant equity'. Who outside the founders and maybe five first employees really have that in a startup? If owning 0.1% which gets diluted to 0.01% before the startup sells for say 40MM bucks four years later is significant to you...

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#65

I graduated in 1997 and, since then, have worked at: - 2 big companies - 2 small steady-state businesses ( - 4 startups (one as a founder) So far my best experience has been at Google, where I work now. Here are some of my reasons: - I have a lot of opportunities to learn because there are so many people with diverse skills and expertise and Google has the resources and motivation to let people investigate novel tech…

I don't have to work with (many) crazy people. At startups and small businesses, I found that one crazy founder or manager (who is probably related to the CEO) can completely ruin the experience. Google has processes to avoid hiring such people or to deal with them post-hire.

That really hit home for me. Part of the severe burnout I'm experiencing is from years of dealing with people from a pill-popping, paranoid nutcase founder to plain old manchildren who thrive on creating drama.

(This was in the SV/SF "startup" scene, though most of the "startups" were actually just small, privately held companies who seemed to use that label when they were in the red, didn't have a clear direction, and wanted people to work more hours.)

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#66
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to say exactly this. 50 hours is completely crazy, and if you're doing it often, you should look for another place ASAP. Fuck, 40 hours is already on the verge of being crazy if your job is intellectually demanding. I've worked in one startup, another one on the process of becoming a small corp (i.e., already adopting process in a much serious scale) and a corp. The best by far, if you value your life outside…

Wow, sentiments about this differ very strongly in Europe vs. the US. What if the employer isn't asking you to work extra, but the person is amibitious and interested in the work he is doing and ends up working 50-60 hours without it getting in the way? To suggest that beyond 35 hours is non productive sounds ridiculous to me as a hypothesis. I would think it varies for every individual. Different folks can run diffe…

I advise you to take a read: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#67
post #64
post #39

> People claim that startups work you hard, I personally don’t see it. From people I’ve talked to, I’d say 50 hour weeks are average. That’s about what you see in corporate America these days. If you're working at an early stage startup then in general nobody should "work you" at all, rather you'll work yourself 60+hours a week because you ACTUALLY HAVE SIGNIFICANT EQUITY in the company and therefor you want to see i…

'significant equity'. Who outside the founders and maybe five first employees really have that in a startup? If owning 0.1% which gets diluted to 0.01% before the startup sells for say 40MM bucks four years later is significant to you...

It depends on what you mean by "startup" I suppose. I've worked for three and in each I've been one of the first dozen or so employees. You don't have to be a founder but I think that being a core "early employee" with a fair equity stake is the right way to get the real "startup experience". Anything else is like.. well working for an established company, and doesn't have the same vibe, or excitement.

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#68
post #57
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love a list of big corporations that are actually great to work for. It seems like Google is in this camp (I know, not for everyone, but it seems like most people have positive experiences there), maybe Facebook. I hear mixed things about Microsoft. What are the top ten BigCorps to work at as a developer?

This is pretty easy. All of them, if you're on the right team, working on the right project. Broad generalizations are pretty useless for something so intensely personal.

Ok, so it's possible to have a great experience at any huge tech company. That doesn't mean there aren't some with a better chance than others (it also doesn't mean that there are). Also, while everyone experiences things differently, I think there are probably some things that most people will agree on as good things and bad things in an employer. I will venture to name some:

The opportunity to work on hard/interesting problems; good salary/benefits relative to the industry; the company is interested in advancing your career/training you to be better when you leave than when you came in; the company places an emphasis on engineering rather than treating it like an unfortunate necessity; programmers are given some level of autonomy or self-determination, the structure is not overly hierarchical; the company tracks developer productivity in reasonable ways rather than based on LOC or ass-time in seat.

There are probably a lot of other things that could go on that list, and at some companies, I'm sure that all of these really depend on where you are in the organization. But I can't believe that these and other things can't be influenced by corporate policy and practice, and that there aren't some companies that make these sorts of things a priority when others don't.

All that being said, I asked the question because I've never worked at a big company before, and maybe I'm totally off base. I was genuinely curious. I'd be happy to hear people's impressions of different companies, or a real explanation for why all big companies are the same and none of them are any better than any others at keeping their developers happy. But just waving your hands doesn't seem any more helpful than overbroad generalizations.

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#69
post #51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long time lurker, first time poster. While I understand what you are saying, I also understand the fears of the parent. From what I know, in some parts of Europe like Greece, Spain, Portugal there is not much software development going on outside of COTS and I know some people in these countries that get caught on a cycle of jumping from consulting company to consulting company but essentially doing the same kind of…

Yes, I'm in one of the countries you mentioned. I also see that pattern among older friends which graduated and are now working for 3-5 years. About 30-40% of the people I knew either exited the country immediately after graduating or 2-3 years after. Some even moved via mobility programs like Erasmus and never came back. The rest remain in the cycle you mentioned and that is my fear.

If you are in an EU state why not move somewhere with a better job market like Germany, UK, the Netherlands or the nordic countries (you don't need to be able to speak anything but English to get work as a programmer in any of these)?

Re: Startup vs. Corporate Life

#70
post #68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty easy. All of them, if you're on the right team, working on the right project. Broad generalizations are pretty useless for something so intensely personal.

Ok, so it's possible to have a great experience at any huge tech company. That doesn't mean there aren't some with a better chance than others (it also doesn't mean that there are). Also, while everyone experiences things differently, I think there are probably some things that most people will agree on as good things and bad things in an employer. I will venture to name some: The opportunity to work on hard/interest…

I've worked at big companies, small companies, and government agencies. You're asking for specifics based on generalizations, which is what I was suggesting you can't really get.

Corporate policy in Corporate America is, much like everything else, basically the same across the board, for legal reasons. What's written down isn't the real driver of company culture and individuals enjoyment and fulfillment in their jobs though.

I've worked ridiculously horrific hours for substandard pay, but loved it because of the team and folks I was working with (common thread from the military: working in the face of adversity breeds camaraderie). The company, boss, the end users could have cared less and provided nothing on your list of 'good things', but it was still a job I enjoyed working at.

I've also worked for companies that checked every 'this should be awesome' box, and found it soulless, with a poor team of folks doing just enough to skate buy on their cushier salaries and lower hours.

Anecdata aside, it's like asking if it's possible to have a good life in America: it depends on what you want, but probably, yes. Where you live, what you do, who you socialize/work with, etc. is highly personal, and drives everything. While YOU (hypothetical you) may think the Silicon Valley is amazing, I know great folks who want nothing more than to live 50 miles from their neighbors in the woods in Maine. They're happy, etc. doing what they do, living how they live. They'd be miserable in NYC or the Valley. Likewise, hypothetical you would be miserable in their log cabin in the woods.

You might love Google or Yahoo or Microsoft, while someone else absolutely hates it. That's got VERY little to do with policy, and nearly everything to do with your personal life philosophy and the team/individuals you end up working with.

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