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What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

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Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#61
Its like the author of this article never compared an English major to a CS major. Yeah, I'm sure the top 1% of English majors are pretty smart guys, but on average they are not very good at thinking logically. And yes, the bottom 25% of CS graduates are probably not that good either.

But the fact remains, if you take a top 25% CS graduate from almost any program in the world, that guy can probably understand a business case quicker than a top 25% English major from an equivalent institution.

Its just far easier to get a humanities degree than it is to get a CS degree, if you aren't a structured thinker to begin with.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#62
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The fact is most English majors don't enjoy heavy duty math or science as much" These statements need data to back them up, Mr. Science.

You don't think it's a given that, on average, students who choose a degree that requires "heavy duty math" enjoy it more than students who choose a degree that doesn't require "heavy duty math"?

I would change your assertion to "choose a degree that requires heavy duty math and succeed/graduate". Sampling after the choice is initially made is clouded by kids choosing what is popular and/or being forced to go to college because of social pressures and/or choosing only what will hopefully make them the most cash.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#63
post #3

It's not that you can't learn rigor and critical thinking skills as an English major, it's that it's not all that hard to complete an English degree without learning those things. Hence the word "signals".

Also, grades don't have a lot of signal in the humanities because there's such a wide spectrum of easy vs. hard grading. Some English professors give one A every 5 years. Others give 75+ percent A's. I don't think it's as common as people make it out to be, but there are students who game the system, and the crass pre-professionals (though a minority) fuck it up for the rest of the students who haven't yet been corru…

"Gaming the system is a lot harder to do in, say, linear algebra or real analysis or quantum mechanics."

To some degree, but I definitely recall some dramatic differences in difficulty from various professors or classes that purportedly covered similar material and met the same requirements. When someone gets all A's, I always wonder whether they were one of the students who said "Why are you taking the second compiler course? That's hard. XYZ is a much easier A..." Of course, someone who doesn't have all A's could still be someone who tried that and failed, which would be kind of the worst case...

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#64
Some of the inflammatory statements have been taken out of context. The B vs. A+ quote was used in the context of students changing majors due to difficulty -- i.e. changing from a CS+English double major to Economics due to the difficulty of the double major. It is a discussion of the phenomenon described by "Students Pick Easier Majors Despite Less Pay." written in the WSJ.

Bock further explains that analytic thinking skills, whether or not they were derived from a CS degree or another degree (Statistics in his case) or not from a degree at all, are the important factor.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#65
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

> They were simply unprepared for the torrent of proofs, deductions, tautologies, De Morgan's laws, etc. All of which I never see used in a professional capacity for the vast majority of software developers. What I do see used quite often is the ability to communicate to customers or other engineers in a clear, succinct and enjoyable manner using the English language.

It's easier to find CS majors who can communicate effectively than English majors who have the logic skills to read, write, and debug code. Especially at the level demanded by a company like Google.

If you're a consultancy that writes CRUD apps I can see emphasizing communication skills over technical skills but you're not Google.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but in CS, the program works or it doesn't. So there's none of that wiggle room. CS degree definitely signals something - a minimum competency that is uncertain in a humanities student.

> Yeah but in CS, the program works or it doesn't. So there's none of that wiggle room. CS grading is not the same thing as just programs working (and often that's not even the most important part of it), and, in my (obviously limited and potentially not representative, I'll admit, but there's not a lot of structured evidence being presented on any side here), the variability between institutions and individual class…

Your last line is telling. I know Many programmers who have no CS degree, or no degree at all. They are some of the best.

SO clearly a CS degree as a bar is going to miss an important demographic (potential hiring population). But a CS bar is also clearly useful in an effort to weed out inappropriate hires (vs one that filters for hiring the best).

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were simply unprepared for the torrent of proofs, deductions, tautologies, De Morgan's laws, etc. All of which I never see used in a professional capacity for the vast majority of software developers. What I do see used quite often is the ability to communicate to customers or other engineers in a clear, succinct and enjoyable manner using the English language.

Technical people often underestimate the value of good communication. Technical does not necessarily refer to programming, but also to other fields like statistical financial modelling (which I do). And complain about the fact that people less qualified than them are in management. I'm not suggesting that communication should be the sole criteria for management - a lot of software companies need programmers at the he…

>>Technical people often underestimate the value of good communication.

Not just underestimate, even outright condemn. Like the people who defend Linus's form of "communication" on the kernel mailing list as "to the point" or "efficient". Anyone who thinks that's an acceptable style of communication from/to any human being is wrong and a perfect example of why the tech companies in general should probably make their engineers attend a speech and/or social relationships class. Somewhere along the line, "engineering culture" decided any communication protocols outside of TCP, UDP and syscalls are a waste of time.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are English professors who are legitimately hard to game, people who are smarter than most or all of us but have chosen to focus on something different. Yes, there's more noise in the system in the humanities, but don't underestimate them just because they have a different skill set. However, the game-the-system students generally avoid those professors, who get a reputation for being difficult graders. So your…

Yeah but in CS, the program works or it doesn't. So there's none of that wiggle room. CS degree definitely signals something - a minimum competency that is uncertain in a humanities student.

I'm not so sure about this. Maybe if you've graduated from a good school. I've known at least one person who graduated with a CS degree but didn't actually know how to program. There are many schools where students get by just by copying each other's homework and the professors never punish them for it. My own major (electrical engineering) at the school I went to was almost nothing but students like this. It's a systemic thing and way more common than a lot of people would think.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#69
post #10

This article is ridiculous. While there are certain areas (e.g. pattern matching) where a typical English major is likely to do well, rigorous logical thinking of the sort needed when we program computers is simply not developed as well as it is in CS, EE, and various other programs. As a third-year undergrad I took a 400-level course on logic from the humanities department. I remember being blown away by how inept t…

I was with you until the last sentence, which packed a low and somewhat unfair punch. There's plenty to do with an English degree besides writing poetry. Law is a typical exit path. So are lucrative positions in media, entertainment, publishing, journalism, and public policy. To excel at these fields, one needs to be pretty smart. It's a different kind of smart from the kind you need in technology jobs. No question about that. But one is not inherently superior to the other. And practitioners of one path are not incapable of pursuing the other.

There's a trend towards convergence, however, and formal logic has had a profound effect on the English curriculum in the last several decades. Hofstadter, Tarski, Quine, Levi-Strauss, et al., are becoming required reading in forward-thinking English curricula. Your typical English course isn't going to touch the type of logic discussed in your typical CS course. But advanced linguistics is, more or less, formal systemics. Unfortunately, you can encounter a fair amount of fluff on the way there.

English education is in need of an overhaul, and it's starting to get one. But there should be no battle between the humanities and the sciences. Instead, we should do a better job bringing the average in the humanities up to par and rigor.

We should also do a better job coaching students on career paths before we ask them to choose majors. If you're studying English because you like reading books, and you have no clue what you want to do when you graduate, you're in for a tough road ahead. If you're studying English because you want to get into Yale Law School, or write for the New York Times, or become the next Michael Lewis, that's great. (But in that case, you'd better be good.)

Ultimately, what matters isn't the content of the two paths, but the application of them. CS is a directly practical degree. You can put to work what you learn almost immediately and unambiguously. You can trace a more or less direct path between the input (education) and the output (skill). English is more indirect. You can learn extremely valuable skills in an English program, but those skills aren't immediately applicable to any particular job. That's because English is a really old curriculum, which predates the modern job market. If you want to make something of an English degree, you'll need to develop skills above and beyond what you learn in the classroom. Generally speaking, schools don't do a great job teaching those ancillary skills. And so the English degree is not, in itself, sufficient for positions to which it's very well suited.

Re: What the Head of Hiring at Google Doesn’t Understand About Skills

#70

I feel bad that I cant get a job at the New York Times with my cs degree. I might not know any literary composition or journalism techniques, but you can't tell me that as a computer scientist I am not as smart as an english major that learned all these skills in college. Ok. Now we both feel inadequate and offended, so it's all even.

> I feel bad that I cant get a job at the New York Times with my cs degree.

You probably can, actually. "Data journalism" is a growing field.

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