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Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

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Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#61

Post by the_real_bto »

outworlder wrote: post #24

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need: - Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source. - Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable f…

I think you are a bit harsh on Toyota here. I can't resist playing devil's advocate. Some googling turned up Toyota has fleets of fuel cell vehicles already [1], this includes some buses. [2] Seen any battery powered buses lately?

2. Batteries suck. They are heavy and don't hold much energy. Advancements seem to come very slowly despite the fact that everyone wants them to be better!

3. Complexity isn't always bad. Hybrids are much more complex than a traditional drivetrain, yet they manage to deliver improvements in fuel economy.

/devil's advocate off

I do love Tesla, and wish them all the success in the world. Their cars are really heavy though, that is a pretty serious drawback to overcome.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_bus

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#62

Post by tbrownaw »

dublinben wrote: post #55
xionon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline is not actually explosive - the fumes are flammable, but not the liquid itself. Hydrogen is much more flammable, and will ignite from a much smaller spark than gasoline will. Cars catch fire in accidents all the time, it's not that hart to imagine that the problem might get worse if we switched to an even more flammable fuel.

Compressed hydrogen would diffuse so quickly that the chance of a dangerous explosion is quite low. Fuel cell vehicles would actually be much safer than gasoline vehicles in this regard. As soon as you were in a catastrophic accident, all your hydrogen would vanish.

As soon as you were in a catastrophic accident, all your hydrogen would vanish.

You would have a bottle of highly compressed hydrogen somewhere. The bottles can be designed so they don't explode when damaged, but it would take a non-zero amount of time for the hydrogen to escape. For however long that takes, you have a jet of escaping pure hydrogen that would make an excellent blowtorch if anything resembling a flame or spark gets too close.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#63

Post by greglindahl »

tbrownaw wrote: post #58
cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) 1. Hydrogen (as opposed to (L|C)NG / gasoline / other hydrocarbons) wouldn't either. 2. I don't think the where matters for CO2? Sure it's supposed to melt the ice caps and put us all underwater, but I don't think there are any local effects?

The reason California has all these ZEV (zero emission vehicle) regulations is because of smog. It's better to burn stuff at a power plant than on a highway in the middle of LA or the Bay Area. (And you're right, CO2 isn't the issue, it's the other stuff.)

In this respect, batteries and fuel cells are similar.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#64

Post by protomyth »

tbrownaw wrote: post #62
dublinben wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compressed hydrogen would diffuse so quickly that the chance of a dangerous explosion is quite low. Fuel cell vehicles would actually be much safer than gasoline vehicles in this regard. As soon as you were in a catastrophic accident, all your hydrogen would vanish.

As soon as you were in a catastrophic accident, all your hydrogen would vanish. You would have a bottle of highly compressed hydrogen somewhere. The bottles can be designed so they don't explode when damaged, but it would take a non-zero amount of time for the hydrogen to escape. For however long that takes, you have a jet of escaping pure hydrogen that would make an excellent blowtorch if anything resembling a flame…

"You would have a bottle of highly compressed hydrogen somewhere."

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_benefits.shtml shows another option for storage (Materials-based storage) that will probably be safer.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#65

Post by thedrbrian »

outworlder wrote: post #9
protomyth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.

Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas? I have. For safety reasons, in many places you have to get out of the vehicle while it is being refuelled (the cylinder gets really hot!). And that is a change from your 50+ years driving habit. It also takes longer than a comparable gas pump (even if it is measured in single digit minutes). The gas gauge also reads differently (my guess is due to pressure decreases as…

How do you fill up the car if you don't get out?

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#66

Post by greglindahl »

the_real_bto wrote: post #61
outworlder wrote: post #24

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need: - Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source. - Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable f…

I think you are a bit harsh on Toyota here. I can't resist playing devil's advocate. Some googling turned up Toyota has fleets of fuel cell vehicles already [1], this includes some buses. [2] Seen any battery powered buses lately? 2. Batteries suck. They are heavy and don't hold much energy. Advancements seem to come very slowly despite the fact that everyone wants them to be better! 3. Complexity isn't always bad. H…

There are a couple of vendors of battery-powered buses. One is a Kleiner Perkins backed startup (http://proterra.com/) that sells buses and overhead fast-charging stations.

BTW the Model S is of a similar weight to other large sedans -- BMW 7-series cars weigh between 4,310 and 5,100 pounds.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#68

Post by cam_l »

greglindahl wrote: post #66
the_real_bto wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are a bit harsh on Toyota here. I can't resist playing devil's advocate. Some googling turned up Toyota has fleets of fuel cell vehicles already [1], this includes some buses. [2] Seen any battery powered buses lately? 2. Batteries suck. They are heavy and don't hold much energy. Advancements seem to come very slowly despite the fact that everyone wants them to be better! 3. Complexity isn't always bad. H…

There are a couple of vendors of battery-powered buses. One is a Kleiner Perkins backed startup ( http://proterra.com/ ) that sells buses and overhead fast-charging stations. BTW the Model S is of a similar weight to other large sedans -- BMW 7-series cars weigh between 4,310 and 5,100 pounds.

Speaking of 7 series.. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#69

Post by mfwarren »

mrfusion wrote: post #67

Just curious. Instead of having to build a hydrogen infrastructure couldn't we use electricity to run the fuel cells in reverse to turn water into h20? I saw it at a science fair once.

Right, so you can use electricity to make h2 at less than 100% efficiency then lay pipes all around the city to move the h2 to the stations, or build giant trucks that can transport the h2 on the roads (and pay drivers). On the other hand you can transport the electricity directly into the car using copper wires that are already in place

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#70

Post by drited »

outworlder wrote: post #51
sliverstorm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about range? Hydrogen might be less energy dense than gasoline, but what about compared to batteries? Range is the #1 crippling factor for EVs to most people I talk to.

Range is a valid concern, but hydrogen has poor energy density per volume (if compressed). If you want compact hydrogen, hydrocarbons are your best bet.

Hydrogen is better than batteries in this respect though, so when comparing zero emission options it still appears to be a good bet for Toyota, if it can be implemented on a large scale.
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