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Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

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Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#61

Post by vdaniuk »

beering wrote: post #40
vdaniuk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you switch to after abandoning Rails? I consider the tooling and rails ecosystem to be the best for small, agile projects and I'm really interested in the alternatives.

I switched to node.js because it was the trendy new thing and I could charge 3x the rate of boring mainstream programmers to deliver the same product, except worse (because it's node.js). I need a new thing though, since apparently node.js is getting too mainstream. Maybe if I can convince enough businesses that they NEED clojure, then I can go that route.

Huh, even if you are sarcastic, it still makes sense.

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#62

Post by brickcap »

williamcotton wrote: post #47
gss77 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenResty consistently handles 5 times more connections than Node.js, without requiring any of the continuation passing nonsense. As usual, popularity doesn't reflect upon quality at all -- Node.js is the Kim Kardashian of web frameworks.

OpenResty is fine for just that... REST interfaces. If you're making an entire web application with a lot of front-end code that is already written in Javascript it is an added cost to also support C and Lua. A lot of important development time can be retained by not having to write the same functionality in multiple languages. A module can be written in Javascript and used on both the client AND the server. Don't co…

I do hear people saying that code can be reused across client and server but I don't find many examples of it. I understand that using one programming language for both client and server is really good as there is no context switch but I don't think that there can be much code can be shared between client and the server.

Also you don't need to program entire application in open resty. Just the idea of using lua instead of nginx mini- language for the config files can be a good enough reason to give it a try. Every body uses nginx anyways for their front end, no?

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#64

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

twistedpair wrote: post #35
dubcanada wrote: post #8

And then as soon as Derpys Mansion new language comes out all the newcomers will flock to that and you're entire staff will leave to go work for some startup. The reason why "Enterprise" uses the software they do is not because it's the fastest, or most suitable for the job. It's that it's been in production for many years and has a large ecosystem and strong commercial backing. Along with a strong workforce that isn…

Amen. I'd add that while JS is great for form validation, trying to make it into a first class language is a bit laughable. For example, if you want to define a function in a namespace, it's up to you which half dozen "patterns" you use to emulate namespaces in the language that lacks them. Same goes for private method/variables, continuations, classes... or more features of other common language. Add to that the typ…

> while JS is great for form validation, trying to make it into a first class language is a bit laughable FWIW, I've written a few 100KLoC of production JS code

Having written a few KLoC of js with angular.js and about the same in tests on it, it definitely is a first class language now ... for the browser. On the server, you have other better options with types, threads and the whole works.

Also, if you've actually written over 100KLoC of javascript, then either you work on high-end web apps for google and co, or you're coding badly wrong.

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#66

Post by zo1 »

twerquie wrote: post #45
jerf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... if you're going to bolt on an "async" library, bolt on threading, and bolt on strict typing, why not use something that starts with that stuff? And ends up doing it better since it was actually created with that stuff in mind, instead of aftermarket bolt-ons? Saying that those things "fix" Node amounts to an admission that you shouldn't have started with Node in the first place.

Because bolting reusable libraries together is 90% (meaningless number alert) of what we do when assembling modern applications. And in this respect, Node is perfectly suited to the job, boasting a) A small core API instead of a sprawling standard class library b) A highly composable export and require mechanism, better in some interesting ways than what exists in other systems (1) c) The fastest growing and soon to…

"a) A small core API instead of a sprawling standard class library"

Using adjectives to accentuate, does not an argument make. "small/core" and "sprawling" all have loaded meanings. And if you wish to convert anyone but the already-converted sub-culture inhabitants, you should probably quantify what you mean and why it's a benefit.

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#67

Post by twistedpair »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #64
twistedpair wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. I'd add that while JS is great for form validation, trying to make it into a first class language is a bit laughable. For example, if you want to define a function in a namespace, it's up to you which half dozen "patterns" you use to emulate namespaces in the language that lacks them. Same goes for private method/variables, continuations, classes... or more features of other common language. Add to that the typ…

> while JS is great for form validation, trying to make it into a first class language is a bit laughable FWIW, I've written a few 100KLoC of production JS code Having written a few KLoC of js with angular.js and about the same in tests on it, it definitely is a first class language now ... for the browser. On the server, you have other better options with types, threads and the whole works. Also, if you've actually…

Various large enterprise one page apps mainly in ExtJs (i.e. 70KLoC per app), predating the many new Xjs libs. Admittedly, they are likely terser these days than a few years back. However, I like to stick to GWT now and write JS compiler plugins to get the JS I need. :)

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#68

Post by frik »

EGreg wrote: post #16

Actually with HHVM, PHP is faster than Node.js! Facebook developers can sometimes outperform Google developers, although the comparison has a lot of extaneous variables here :)

True, and HHVM is awesome.

Where Node.js shines is Web Sockets and similar things. But one can use libevent with PHP (though not as easy).

I found some useful comparision benchmarks on that site: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r9&hw=i7...

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#69

Post by EGreg »

frik wrote: post #68
EGreg wrote: post #16

Actually with HHVM, PHP is faster than Node.js! Facebook developers can sometimes outperform Google developers, although the comparison has a lot of extaneous variables here :)

True, and HHVM is awesome. Where Node.js shines is Web Sockets and similar things. But one can use libevent with PHP (though not as easy). I found some useful comparision benchmarks on that site: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r9&hw=i7...

Do you know of a way to use libevent to make concurrent queries to mysql? Or mysqli to do this? I mean hitting MULTIPLE database servers / shards.

That would speed up my php by a lot. I an cache results of queries in PHP but can't batch things together before they are sent. In JS I can wait for 50msec to do requests in batches. That lets higher lawyers (ViewModels) query the model without worrying about batching!

Re: Why Node.js is becoming the go-to technology in the Enterprise

#70

Post by jerf »

awj wrote: post #51
twerquie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because bolting reusable libraries together is 90% (meaningless number alert) of what we do when assembling modern applications. And in this respect, Node is perfectly suited to the job, boasting a) A small core API instead of a sprawling standard class library b) A highly composable export and require mechanism, better in some interesting ways than what exists in other systems (1) c) The fastest growing and soon to…

Bolting reusable libraries together is great for some things, not so much for others. How much of that large package repository uses different (or worse, conflicting) solutions for abstracting async programming? Some batteries really are better off being included.

And I'd observe that all three of the things I mentioned ("async", threading, static typing) are firmly in the "not" camp.

If the Node community admits these are desirable characteristics of a programming development environment, then they've lost, because they can not compete on any of those three fronts. The entire value proposition of Node was basically that those three things weren't important. If they are, Node's arrogant swagger turns into a frantic attempt to cobble together enough functionality to pretend to have the features that exist better elsewhere.

Don't think you can sell me on fundamental weaknesses in your language of choice being features, twerquie. I've got too much experience in too many environments to fall for that.

Why, it's almost as if Node is built on fundamentally 1990s scripting technology based on fundamentally 1970s event-based ideas or something, instead of being the radical revolutionary departure we all know it really is.

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