Earlier quoted context omitted.
Netflix hasn't done this (and likely won't) because would make it difficult/impossible to control the quality of their service. P2P connections are a bit of a crap-shoot based on things like router configuration, device type and resources. For example, P2P wouldn't work as well on an iPad where you're only caching a few hundred megs of video (and not the whole video) at any given time.
I don't think the parent meant to imply a P2P implementation of Netflix streaming video, just that Netflix is perfectly capable of making that ratio balance out by uploading crap from the clients they have (partial) control over - which would then be traffic coming from Comcast's network.
Observations of an Internet Middleman
61–70 of 180 posts
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big problem with your reasoning centers on word choice; you phrased it as Level 3 having a contract that says "we get to send this much data per month", and then Level 3 attempting to send more data than that agreement. However, you must remember that every single packet that Level 3 sends to the Comcast network is a packet that was requested BY A COMCAST CUSTOMER. Level 3 isn't just deciding to send a bunc…
"Level 3 is ONLY sending the traffic to Comcast that Comcast is requesting; it is THEIR customers who are creating this demand for Level 3's customer's content." This still misses the mark. Netflix creates a service on Level3 that Comcast customers want. So Netflix/Level3 are responsible for making a product that people want to use, and Comcast customers are responsible for wanting to use that product and increasing…
It seems like Level3 is ready and willing to go. Comcast is just leveraging their monopoly to get out of standard peering practices. They know that by causing a fuss the lookie loos will show up and say "oh my, a controversy, lets split the difference!" Bonus points if you can work in the phrases "right balance" and "fair share."
If it's because it's hard for Level3 to prove, they should put up some money to shore up the connection, and then write a public letter to Comcast customers telling them how Comcast is shorting them and to get angry.
An open letter after giving into their demands? Did you just tell me to go fuck myself? This is that open letter. If they do it after giving into Comcast the lookie loos will be all the more ready and willing to pull "compromises" out of their ass that don't solve anything but making them happy with themselves.
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, this does seem to be a core issue. How can we make it easier for people to start last-mile ISPs? It seems like a pretty capital intensive business to get involved in :)
Once the FCC finally takes the brakes off unlicensed wireless, rural and lower-density urban customers will see a competitive market of WISPs. They've been dragging it out for years, though, so who knows when that will happen?
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Maybe we make Cable companies share their last mile networks like we did with DSL? Which killed investment in DSL. Who wants to spend billions on infrastructure they are forced to lease out at wholesale rates to competitors?
Yet somehow we manage to spend trillions of dollars on streets, sewers and other infrastructure
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think Level3's issue is that Comcast is unwilling to increase the capacity of their links without payment from Level3. If Level3 engages in settlement-free peering with Comcast and their network traffic graph looks anything like the 100gbit link in the article, I don't blame them: it's a 20:1 disparity in traffic in vs traffic out. What's happening here is that Level3 and other transit providers are starting to see…
"Settlement-free peering assumes that bandwidth usage is roughly symmetric: when it's not symmetric, the side sending more bandwidth has to pay." I've never understood why this is - especially in a case like this, where the sending side is sending because (the customers of) the receiving side explicitly asked for it.
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "It seems like it would be great if they could figure out a mutually beneficial situation, but I guess I fail to see the moral hazard." This article in particular is making the argument that at the level that L3, Comcast, AT&T, Netflix and others are operating, it's almost always mutually beneficial to peer. The article also makes the point that the capital expenditure is negligible compared to the benefit to both…
> it's almost always mutually beneficial to peer. But Netflix might be the exception here right? > You can't just ignore the monopoly argument. You're right, I'm just trying to disambiguate it from the net neutrality argument, which doesn't seem to actually be relevant here (as Comcast is treating all traffic through those links poorly, not just Netflix traffic). If it is truly about the monopoly, regulators have dif…
The mutual benefit still exists. Comcast benefits from peering with Netflix because it allows Comcast customers to access Netflix. Comcast is just playing chicken because they know their monopoly position allows them to hold out longer than peers with actual competitors.
> You're right, I'm just trying to disambiguate it from the net neutrality argument, which doesn't seem to actually be relevant here (as Comcast is treating all traffic through those links poorly, not just Netflix traffic).
The network neutrality issue is that Comcast is intentionally causing congestion on all the links that Netflix traffic could possibly use. The traffic for Comcast's own competing video service offerings don't have to traverse the congested links, nor does traffic from anyone who Comcast provides with a separate uncongested link in exchange for a toll or some other business consideration. That's practically the definition of a network neutrality issue.
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's a 20:1 disparity in traffic in vs traffic out. Are you talking about on this graph? http://blog.level3.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/route_info... Because all the numbers I see are showing about a 5:1 or 6:1 imbalance. > ...transit providers are starting to see their industry be squeezed by the big ISPs. No. > ...why do transit providers even exist? Because it's untenable (and inefficient) for Comcast to buil…
> To a normal company, that's a tangible benefit to the agreement enough to make it worthwhile. Can you qualify this a bit? What's the actual expect cost to Comcast here to fix the issue? General ballpark?
But there are also typically shared costs for networks to
interconnect. Each party pays to augment its own network
to allow for more traffic exchange (the expense to augment
capacity is not significant for either party). And since
we often choose to interconnect in a third party data
center, the networks usually agree to share the cost of
the cross connects by paying for them on an alternating
basis.
I take that to mean the CapEx is insignificant and the recurring expenses are shared equitably. What's notable about that is that Comcast isn't even sitting down at the table to negotiate equitable terms for upgraded capacity. They're out and out refusing to upgrade without direct payment.Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the ISP is letting a connection become saturated in order to place pressure on a third party provider to provide settlement, they are doing so at the cost of any other providers running over those trunks. Since switching to AT&T, I've noticed decreased Netflix performance and sometimes Imgur loads like I'm on dial-up again. I haven't checked the routes but it has me wondering if it's shared congestion. To your poi…
I have two net connections, and both are generally reliable, but I've noticed that the DSL connection (over Windstream) is very slow for certain sites like imgur and tumblr and AWS, so I've set those to use the cable modem (Time Warner) connection, where they work great. Since I have 2 connections I definitely have competition in my area. (Wireless is another option.) So I don't get why if a connection has issues, it…
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Maybe we make Cable companies share their last mile networks like we did with DSL? Which killed investment in DSL. Who wants to spend billions on infrastructure they are forced to lease out at wholesale rates to competitors?
Yet somehow we manage to spend trillions of dollars on streets, sewers and other infrastructure
The American Society of Civil Engineers estimates that we have $3.6 trillion in delayed maintenance and underinvestment of our core infrastructure (water, sewers, bridges, power lines, etc): https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/08/infr-a08.html.
I'm not one of those people that believes we shouldn't have public infrastructure, but I do think you have to be cognizant of the trade-offs involved. Take something like Amtrak. Amtrak has an almost $9 billion maintenance backlog on the Northeast Corridor: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/06/15/house-plan-to-privatiz.... The NEC is the only part of the whole system that generates an operating profit. A private company would shut down the rest of the network, and try to make the NEC service as attractive as possible for customers. But in a regime where politics decides where the money goes, the operating surplus generated by the NEC instead goes to funding money-losing lines in the rest of the country.
Road building, too, is the result of distorted incentives. As an urbanite who doesn't like to drive, I would spend $0 on highways designed to get suburban commuters into the cities, and spend that money on public transit instead. Surbanites, of course, feel differently. Who decides how that money is allocated? Not the market, but the political system, which at the national level systematically over represents rural and suburban votes.
The situation with telecom companies isn't ideal, but I don't think the dynamics of the telecom market are amenable to the kind of broad political consensus necessary for a successful municipal service. Take water, for example. Everybody needs roughly the same amount of water, and is satisfied with a relatively similar level of water quality. Meanwhile, I'd bet 95% of people would be perfectly happy with 5 mbps service, while a small minority wants gigabit. Do you think the political system is set up to make that small minority happy? If there is anything to learn from how municipalities handle public infrastructure is that when you put it to a vote, the voters will spend as little as possible to get the minimum acceptable level of service. That's exactly what happened to our power and water infrastructure.
Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
The core issue isn't at the last mile, but in connecting a last mile network to the internet? Maybe we make Cable companies share their last mile networks like we did with DSL?
> Maybe we make Cable companies share their last mile networks like we did with DSL? Which killed investment in DSL. Who wants to spend billions on infrastructure they are forced to lease out at wholesale rates to competitors?