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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#61

Post by nbouscal »

vijayr wrote: post #57
nbouscal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends heavily on what you mean by work. If by work you mean a minimum wage job at a McDonalds or Walmart, that isn't exactly what I would call purpose and dignity. For a meaning of work that included intellectual/artistic exploration without a guarantee of economic return on investment, but excluded economically viable but degrading labor, I could agree.

That's one way to look at it. I'm not disagreeing with it, but another way to look at it would be - any work that puts food on the table is work with purpose and dignity. Yet another (self centric?) way to look at it would be - if the job that I am doing helps me grow intellectually, emotionally etc then it is good work (regardless of whether it is useful to others/society or not). May be these questions would be mor…

Fairly certain that most people would disagree with "any work that puts food on the table is work with purpose and dignity." Easy examples come to mind: prostitution, arms dealing, etc.

The thing about usefulness to society is that we just don't need everyone to be useful anymore. Society will continue on perfectly fine even if half of the population contributes nothing at all, because of technology.

The future is not so far away anymore, and societal change is very slow. These are the kind of questions we need to be thinking about now.

Re: A nation of slaves

#62

Post by barry-cotter »

rjzzleep wrote: post #11

funny i was talking about something similar with a friend last night. think about this: in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete) you study for a quarter century. think about it. a quarter of a century. that's the height of your youth. then you're allowed to work for 40 years so you can "enjoy" y…

in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete

Give three examples. Just graduated doctors get paid while they're doing further study and specialisation, ditto for lawyers and doctoral students mostly get paid, albeit very badly.

Re: A nation of slaves

#63

Post by logfromblammo »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #21
logfromblammo wrote: post #9

Here's a thought experiment. Mr. Myne has invented an extraordinary machine. This one machine can, using polluted air and brackish water as material inputs, produce a nutritious food substitute and potable water for one person for one entire day with less than $1.30 of grid power. The 2000 kcal daily diet uses about 8000 kcal of electricity and 10 L of dirty water. With this machine, a person can avoid starvation and…

This is why patents ought to be property in the same sense that land or leases are property, and the govt. ought to be able to use eminent domain on them. Pay Mr. Myne a lot for his contribution to society, but then make sure that even the least-well-off can take advantage of this newfound material wealth without exploitation.

While there is no single right answer here, I think maybe you have stumbled across one of the many possible wrong answers.

If you haven't already figured it out, Mr. Myne represents the owner-investor class, his machine represents future industrial capital, and your solution was to use the government to seize control of the capital.

Re: A nation of slaves

#64

Post by atmosx »

vijayr wrote: post #28
mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

This man[1] didn't work much in his life, he mocked Alexander the Great[2] and it's pretty much famous for his views almost 2500 years after his death.

It's quite an accomplishment given the fact that he chose to live as poor man in a very rich society.

Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should not be working.

Of course all these guys lived in the 4th century B.C.. With today's technology, people should not be working for food and rest. Seriously, the fact that there are people in whatever continent homeless and starving is a shame for our evolved society.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope

[2] When Alexander the Great took over Athens. He wanted to visit the Wisest man in Athens and the tale (mythology I get) says that the oracle of Delphi (Pythia) had state a couple of years before that The wisest man in Athens is Diogenis of Sinore. Funny, given the fact that Plato was around at the time. So when Alexander went finally found Diogenis in his jar - a jar Diogenis used as a bed/home in the agora - said "Ask for anything and I shall grant it you!" and Diogenis supposedly responded with indifference "*Can you move on the left? You're hiding the sun." ... The answer of course has a deeper meaning, Alexander couldn't give him the sun... And the most famous student of Aristotle (Alexander) was quite impressed as he moved on the left.

Re: A nation of slaves

#65

Post by skittles »

A free-market society would never average a 15 hour work week unless there's no incentive to pay for the work anymore. This could happen if we find a limitless energy source and real artificial intelligence. As long as someone is willing to pay for hours of work, people will be willing to work more than 15 hours a week to get ahead.

Re: A nation of slaves

#66

Post by danford »

Great article. One of the things that many people have an aversion to when it comes to this kind of thing is the "socialist" aspect of it. We all agree that it's great, but is it for everybody? I totally see where libertarians come from. They want A LOT of freedom. But why can't we have it both ways? One of the reasons socialism is hard to maintain is because of how spread out things can be, I think we can all agree that with socialism you inevitably have to force people to do certain things so that society can work (for example, live in a certain place), and this is much easier to do in a small location, but what's stopping us from having two sets of laws governing two areas of land?

You can fit everyone in the US into an area the size of Jacksonville Fl., so why not just establish "tech-metros" which are open to anyone and provide basic necessities in a socialized fashion, and use automation and digitalization to provide goods and services, while designating certain swaths of land out side these places as under a different set of laws that are more libertarian in nature? I believe ~60% of people would flock to the "tech-metros" while the remaining portion would attempt life in a more privatized fashion out side of them. With a more centralized "sub-government" in charge of these small areas, and with it being easy to come and go as you please, it should be easier to take care of the masses that want to be taken care of and let the masses who don't want to be taken care of take care of themselves.

Now that's just a couple paragraphs on a very radical idea, so there are a lot of details being left out, but imho this idea provides the most happiness along with the least destruction.

Re: A nation of slaves

#67

Post by rayiner »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

The problem I have with your viewpoint is that it's contrary to what we've seen empirically. Sub-cultures where people don't work, but have their basic needs met aren't exactly flourishing. Work doesn't just give people purpose and dignity, it creates essential social structure without which communities dissolve.

I think it's quite possible that we could organize communities around something other than work. Colleges, for example, are a pretty good example. But I think proponents of basic income ignore the vital necessity of having some alternative before pulling the rug out from under people.

Re: A nation of slaves

#68

Post by wtbob »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #21
logfromblammo wrote: post #9

Here's a thought experiment. Mr. Myne has invented an extraordinary machine. This one machine can, using polluted air and brackish water as material inputs, produce a nutritious food substitute and potable water for one person for one entire day with less than $1.30 of grid power. The 2000 kcal daily diet uses about 8000 kcal of electricity and 10 L of dirty water. With this machine, a person can avoid starvation and…

This is why patents ought to be property in the same sense that land or leases are property, and the govt. ought to be able to use eminent domain on them. Pay Mr. Myne a lot for his contribution to society, but then make sure that even the least-well-off can take advantage of this newfound material wealth without exploitation.

Patents are property which is automatically taken by eminent domain when the patent term expires.

Re: A nation of slaves

#69

Post by semanticist »

skittles wrote: post #65

A free-market society would never average a 15 hour work week unless there's no incentive to pay for the work anymore. This could happen if we find a limitless energy source and real artificial intelligence. As long as someone is willing to pay for hours of work, people will be willing to work more than 15 hours a week to get ahead.

Why?

No, seriously, if I can work 15 hours a week and live comfortably, why is there an automatic assumption that I'd need to work more just because other people are prepared to do that? What does 'get ahead' even mean, in that context?

There's so many social and cultural assumptions bound up in your statement that it's nearly meaningless for anyone who isn't you.

Re: A nation of slaves

#70

Post by wmt »

rjzzleep wrote: post #11

funny i was talking about something similar with a friend last night. think about this: in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete) you study for a quarter century. think about it. a quarter of a century. that's the height of your youth. then you're allowed to work for 40 years so you can "enjoy" y…

Studying for a quarter of a century during the height of your youth a reward on its own, and it's unfortunate that for so many it's just a path to employment. I wouldn't change that even in the imaginary utopia I can dream about.

What's BS is having to pay for that is the less fortunate countries, and a pressure to churn people through it as fast as possible.

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