Am I really a developer or just a good Googler? • Hacker News Board

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#61

Post by chrisbennet » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

On my own projects I'll sometimes "reinvent the wheel" on purpose. It's a good way to make learning mistakes. For better or worse, I tend to learn from making mistakes.

At work though, my employer isn't really paying me so I can experience personal growth. I'm try to deliver value as efficiently as I can.

I've done this long enough to know that the "easiest" problems can have subtle bugs. Think of the singleton pattern: if you write one "without looking at the answer" you invariably make a small mistake that introduces a race condition. That's why I Google even "easy" problems.

That said, I can't do math in my head very well any more - calculators have robbed me of day to day practice and my 8th grade math skills are flabby now. (My degree is in math so it's especially embarrassing.)

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#62

Post by incision » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:48 PM UTC

evli wrote: post #31

incision wrote: post #14

>"...try programming for a day without Googling. Then two days, maybe a week. See how it feels. Remember that there was a time we programmed without copying our work." Once I decided I really wanted to learn to write code I just plain stopped with the copying and even referencing anything beyond docs or a thorough book. I work to create a functional implementation of whatever it is I'm looking for, no matter how naiv…

I think that is some value in doing that, for learning. But as a professional, with deadlines and money involved. Wouldn't google be best?

>"But as a professional, with deadlines and money involved. Wouldn't google be best?"

I actually meant to say something about this in my original post.

There's definitely something to be said for going straight for a solution if you write code for a living.

Though, I'd be hesitant to say Google is best without a qualifier. It's a great tool and incredible reference, but you'd have to think about the value and potential liability of a developer who is committing Googled code he/she doesn't fully understand.

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#63

Post by nissimk » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:49 PM UTC

franze wrote: post #55

jared314 wrote: post #16

> Remember that there was a time we programmed without copying our work. Nope. I remember specifically copying from known solutions in large organized reams of marked paper (a "book" we called it). They used to have whole rooms, and personnel, dedicated to storing them. Now, you couldn't just ask for what you wanted, like "clojurescript core.async examples". Oh, no. Research required either knowing how to search thro…

also there were magazines with full working programs (sometimes event 4 to 5 pages of "beautiful" BASIC) that you manually copied - letter by letter, number by number - into a trusted C64 (or other pre-historic computer thingie).

I miss those. We should bring that back. Now there is github with tons of sources but very few explanatory paragraphs to help understand the reasoning behind the design or implementation. I've seen a number of devops blogs where there are posts with snippets of command lines and config files explaining how to get some software set up in difficult configurations, but it would be interesting to see development blogs with the same kind of depth including links to github source. I'm working on some ideas for something like that. Hopefully I'll really get started on it soon.

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#64

Post by zheshishei » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:58 PM UTC

mentos wrote: post #47

Imagine how much value/productivity would be lost if stackoverflow was erased from existence. I saw somewhere that you can get all of wikipedia on a 128GB SD card? Would be cool if you could get the same for all of stackoverflow. Would make a neat gift and might serve some practical purposes if you were working offline.

Yup, you can download all of stack exchange (or any subset of it) in a zip file.

https://archive.org/details/stackexchange

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#65

Post by groby_b » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:58 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #27

epenn wrote: post #10

It isn't a crime if you occasionally need to google something. It is a crime if you copy and paste a solution you find without understanding how it works. This leads to cargo cult programming. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming

Is copy/pasting a solution without understanding how it works worse than using a library, framework, or programming environment without knowing how it works?

Yes, it is. Using a library is a transition of abstraction layers. It's expected that some understanding might get lost at that point. It's also expected that you understand what the library promises to do when you make that call - i.e. that you read the docs.

Copy/paste lives at the same abstraction layer as code that you actually write yourself - the same level of understanding should apply. (Of course, if you don't understand any of the code you write, you're in the clear ;)

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#66

Post by nnnnni » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

amaks wrote: post #17

khnd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of the problem solving interview is more to see the candidates reasoning process and less the ability to recall the problem and reproduce a solution. I like interviews where the problems are more open ended and the interviewer is active in the process and it's more of a discussion towards a solution and THEN coding or at least some pseudocode. I've had interviews where I'll be asked some canned algo/data str…

That's what I meant. I personally hate interview questions revolving around "reverse a string" and alike, but really like open ended questions, which result in many options and discussions, AKA "design questions".

Oh well that's just fine... It's the thought process that's important to me!

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#67

Post by dfxm12 » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

incision wrote: post #14

>"...try programming for a day without Googling. Then two days, maybe a week. See how it feels. Remember that there was a time we programmed without copying our work." Once I decided I really wanted to learn to write code I just plain stopped with the copying and even referencing anything beyond docs or a thorough book. I work to create a functional implementation of whatever it is I'm looking for, no matter how naiv…

What is Google, if not the most thorough book?

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#68

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

nissimk wrote: post #53

jared314 wrote: post #16

> Remember that there was a time we programmed without copying our work. Nope. I remember specifically copying from known solutions in large organized reams of marked paper (a "book" we called it). They used to have whole rooms, and personnel, dedicated to storing them. Now, you couldn't just ask for what you wanted, like "clojurescript core.async examples". Oh, no. Research required either knowing how to search thro…

Yes, exactly, the old saying goes: RTFM (Read The Fine* Manual). In the 21st century google is the manual. If you're not looking stuff up in google, you're doing it wrong. It's great if you can do some stuff without using google, but memorizing reference material doesn't mean you're a better developer.

I argue that it does: the more you have committed to memory of the basic units of your environment, the expotentially more efficient you will be, and simultaneously the greater problems you will be capable of solving.

Think of programming as speaking in a language. He who has more of the language committed to memory will be orders of magnitude greater at communicating in that language than someone who has to look up every odd word. Furthermore, the concepts that can be created will be much more complex and abstract than the person who doesn't have a handle on the basics: people who are clever and quick-witted in a language they are fluent in will often seem dull in a language they don't know well. Having the basics committed to memory is absolutely critical. Its unfortunately that this level of mastery has been devalued with the rise of the "just google it" culture.

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#69

Post by baddox » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 8:02 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #65

baddox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is copy/pasting a solution without understanding how it works worse than using a library, framework, or programming environment without knowing how it works?

Yes, it is. Using a library is a transition of abstraction layers. It's expected that some understanding might get lost at that point. It's also expected that you understand what the library promises to do when you make that call - i.e. that you read the docs. Copy/paste lives at the same abstraction layer as code that you actually write yourself - the same level of understanding should apply. (Of course, if you don'…

In that case, it sounds like it just depends on whether you paste the code directly into an existing file. If you paste the code into its own file, then import it into your project, the distinction seems to vanish.

Re: Am I really a developer or just a good Googler?

#70

Post by writtles » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 9:27 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #68

nissimk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly, the old saying goes: RTFM (Read The Fine* Manual). In the 21st century google is the manual. If you're not looking stuff up in google, you're doing it wrong. It's great if you can do some stuff without using google, but memorizing reference material doesn't mean you're a better developer.

I argue that it does: the more you have committed to memory of the basic units of your environment, the expotentially more efficient you will be, and simultaneously the greater problems you will be capable of solving. Think of programming as speaking in a language. He who has more of the language committed to memory will be orders of magnitude greater at communicating in that language than someone who has to look up…

True, but there are also other brilliant minds in the field that are creating solutions that you can also learn from. Isolating yourself from that doesn't help much either.