How programmers should write their resumes • Hacker News Board

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#61

Post by danielweber » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 2:36 PM UTC

doesnt_know wrote: post #59

danielweber wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will the programmer know that the professional service is doing a good job? I've seen recruiters -- supposedly experts in what it takes to get hired, and are motivated because the only way they get compensated if I get the position -- completely butcher my resume.

Recruiting and Resume Writing are completely different services. One gets paid by a company when they fill roles, the other is paid directly by you and are accountable to you. Surely you can see the difference? Also, for the record, not all recruiters are like that, but it's probably pointless trying to convince you otherwise. Pick the service like you pick any other service. Word of mouth from people you trust, revi…

I'm sure they could give me a pretty resume. How can I tell if it actually works? There are dozens of factors at play[1]. While job candidates need to dedicate time to the job hunt (just like employers need to dedicate time to recruiting people) it's hard to imagine having the bandwidth and the sample size to do A/B testing of my resume compared with the "professional" one.

I can tell ugly and bad resumes. When a bunch of sentences on using Microsoft Office have been added to my resume, I can tell it's a bad resume. This doesn't mean I can tell the difference between the 95th percentile and the 98th percentile resume for a particular employer, where the latter will get me in the door and the former won't.

> but it's probably pointless trying to convince you otherwise.

Hey, thanks man!

[1] Say there are two companies and one has a "don't say anything about hobbies" hiring manager and the other has an "always mention hobbies" hiring manager.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#62

Post by aeonsky » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 2:54 PM UTC

rjbez17 wrote: post #56

aeonsky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it might make one feel better to call oneself an engineer (you're not, it is not one of the original engineering practices), a developer (I guess, is it any better though), guru, ninja, evangelist (rebranded words). There is absolutely no need for these names in the software context. All of these words are made for the touchy-feely Gen-Y'ers (which I am a part of). While everyone tries to make the word "program…

I would argue anyone that is creating anything within software is doing engineering (and know what they are doing): The American Engineers' Council for Professional Development (ECPD, the predecessor of ABET) has defined "engineering" as: The creative application of scientific principles to design or develop structures, machines, apparatus, or manufacturing processes, or works utilizing them singly or in combination;…

While I do agree with you somewhat, I'm willing to give up to be called an engineer by others to stop all of these new engineering disciplines from appearing: political engineering, social engineering, market engineering. With this logic you can apply engineering to anything you do. Engineering used to be a much nobler and much more respected calling, not so much anymore.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#63

Post by j2kun » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 2:58 PM UTC

mh_yam wrote: post #31

MetaCosm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recruiters do that because lots of HR departments are explicit: docx or deleted. Once you get through the screen, you can show them your fancy resume, but at that point, no one cares about your resume -- you already caught their attention and it is interview / references time.

Haha. If a company doesn't want to hire me because my resume is not in .docx format, I probably don't want to be working there anyway!

If you judge a company based on its hiring team's practices, you'll probably rule out a lot of great companies.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#64

Post by russelluresti » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 2:59 PM UTC

I find these funny. Not helpful to anyone at all, but funny.

Article says: "Sure, you might have implemented a new feature "in less than a month", but why did you start in the first place?"

90% of developers reply with: "Oh dear God, I don't make the decisions. As far as I know, some AE was golfing with some d-bag client/customer who, between jokes about breasts and baseball, mentioned 'Wouldn't it be cool if your product...' and now I've been told to make it happen."

Article says: "Use all that freed-up real estate to describe how you made it better than anyone else could have."

Self-aware developers reply with: "Well, actually, someone else probably could have done a better job. I'm good, but I'm not the guy giving talks and inventing technologies. That guy doesn't need to write a resume. That guy shows up in jeans and a t-shirt and walks away with an offer 3x my salary."

Article says: "what was the impact of your work...in numbers?"

90% of developers reply with: "HAHAHAHAHAHA. You think we kept analytics??? Good one. That's a good one."

Article says: "You resume should be devoid of personality."

I reply with: "Please die in a fire."

Article says: "Answer this: what kind of job are you looking for?"

A confused developer replies with: "But still write my resume in exactly the same way whether I'm applying at a Fortune 100 company or a 5 person start-up?"

It was at this point I stopped reading, so if there's more ridiculousness at the end, well, you have more patience than I do.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#65

Post by doesnt_know » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 3:48 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #61

doesnt_know wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiting and Resume Writing are completely different services. One gets paid by a company when they fill roles, the other is paid directly by you and are accountable to you. Surely you can see the difference? Also, for the record, not all recruiters are like that, but it's probably pointless trying to convince you otherwise. Pick the service like you pick any other service. Word of mouth from people you trust, revi…

I'm sure they could give me a pretty resume. How can I tell if it actually works ? There are dozens of factors at play[1]. While job candidates need to dedicate time to the job hunt (just like employers need to dedicate time to recruiting people) it's hard to imagine having the bandwidth and the sample size to do A/B testing of my resume compared with the "professional" one. I can tell ugly and bad resumes. When a bu…

You can tell if it actually works, when it actually works. I went from 0 callbacks to around a 30%-40% interview rate. It become 100% when I just let a recruiter do it for me (probably because he didn't "gamble" going for jobs that were outside my experience like I sometimes did).

I'm not really sure what else to tell you. When you use any service, there is always a chance that the result is shit. As an adult and a consumer you just have to do your best to mitigate the risk.

If you are already getting lots of callbacks and interviews then it's probably already fine. But if you are getting none, then it's time to swallow your pride and accept that you need help from a professional.

> Hey, thanks man!

I didn't mean to insult you, but if your personal experience with recruiters is only negative, nothing I say will change that perception.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#66

Post by alttab » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

MetaCosm wrote: post #46

alttab wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, I actually care about your GPA. There is some self-selection with those that have a 3.9+. It means they cared about the topic, they went to class consistently, and they performed well during tests (under pressure). I'd much rather have the motivated, driven guy who wants to dot his I's and cross his T's than a programmer who thinks that learning big-O notation isn't worth it, that learning softwa…

As a non-hiring manager, who has hired 159 software developers and interviewed probably over 1000. I have found high GPA to have negative correlation with success. When I started, I had absolutely no idea how to hire -- so I just kept track of good hires and bad and looked for correlations to help me hire better in the future. Two biggest things in my personal experience that ended up with amazing hires. Unashamed to…

I would agree if we were considering GPA as the strongest leading indicator of a good hire. This seems like a straw man argument because its not what I said.

I would assume that arrogance, ego, and inability to adapt and learn comes out during the interview process. You should be weeding these people out regardless of their GPA.

Assuming they aren't afraid to admit they don't know something, or aren't a complete asshole, I want to know how you deal with the cards you are dealt - that includes going to class, studying for tests, and doing things you deem "unimportant." The last 20% of any project is where 80% of the time and effort go, and I want to know when that time comes that you won't settle for a "B."

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#67

Post by MetaCosm » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 8:10 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #66

MetaCosm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-hiring manager, who has hired 159 software developers and interviewed probably over 1000. I have found high GPA to have negative correlation with success. When I started, I had absolutely no idea how to hire -- so I just kept track of good hires and bad and looked for correlations to help me hire better in the future. Two biggest things in my personal experience that ended up with amazing hires. Unashamed to…

I would agree if we were considering GPA as the strongest leading indicator of a good hire. This seems like a straw man argument because its not what I said. I would assume that arrogance, ego, and inability to adapt and learn comes out during the interview process. You should be weeding these people out regardless of their GPA. Assuming they aren't afraid to admit they don't know something, or aren't a complete assh…

I didn't say strongest indicator, I said negative correlation. These are people I hired because they interviewed well, I liked them initially -- or I wouldn't have hired them. Yet, out of the small handful of people I have had to fire, they make up the vast majority.

Over time (around 15 years), I simply had to accept a negative correlation. It is something me and my peers spitball ideas about often these days. Our working, but entirely booze derived, theory is that the high GPA kids are generally able to keep top marks because mom and dad pay for everything, so they can devote themselves more easily to getting an A. But, this ease gives a sense of absolute entitlement and bitter, useless arrogance... versus the kid working a job, helping at home and struggling to lock down that B. But, just a theory and all that.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#68

Post by alttab » Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

MetaCosm wrote: post #67

alttab wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree if we were considering GPA as the strongest leading indicator of a good hire. This seems like a straw man argument because its not what I said. I would assume that arrogance, ego, and inability to adapt and learn comes out during the interview process. You should be weeding these people out regardless of their GPA. Assuming they aren't afraid to admit they don't know something, or aren't a complete assh…

I didn't say strongest indicator, I said negative correlation. These are people I hired because they interviewed well, I liked them initially -- or I wouldn't have hired them. Yet, out of the small handful of people I have had to fire, they make up the vast majority. Over time (around 15 years), I simply had to accept a negative correlation. It is something me and my peers spitball ideas about often these days. Our w…

Can't argue with the sentiment. And considering "numbers" I'd say you're right about privileged kids getting 4.0 easy, but it can't build character. Maybe I myself am an outlier (as I've had my own hardships), but I'm willing to accept I may be wrong, statistically.

Tldr I totally buy your "brat theory"

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#69

Post by imdsm » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 8:11 AM UTC

MetaCosm wrote: post #37

mh_yam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. If a company doesn't want to hire me because my resume is not in .docx format, I probably don't want to be working there anyway!

That is one way to look at it -- a rather unproductive one, but you are welcome to it. Lots of great teams work at large companies and have no control over the first pass of resumes. The reasons are often somewhat complex. Their application tracking software only supports word. Their IT department has sent word from atop the mountain to only accept .docx because it works with their AV and a bad virus got into the com…

As mh_yam said, if they're only accepting .docx, and if someone else controls the first stage of the recruitment process, then maybe these aren't the right companies for some people.

Larger companies may do this, and if you like larger companies, this is probably ok. Not for me.

Re: How programmers should write their resumes

#70

Post by imdsm » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 8:13 AM UTC

MetaCosm wrote: post #37

mh_yam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. If a company doesn't want to hire me because my resume is not in .docx format, I probably don't want to be working there anyway!

That is one way to look at it -- a rather unproductive one, but you are welcome to it. Lots of great teams work at large companies and have no control over the first pass of resumes. The reasons are often somewhat complex. Their application tracking software only supports word. Their IT department has sent word from atop the mountain to only accept .docx because it works with their AV and a bad virus got into the com…

Though I have to say it isn't unproductive. Unless you're unemployed. But if you're employed and you're wanted by numerous companies, what is unproductive about picking the right one?