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Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

thenewatlantis.com

61–68 of 68 posts

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#61
I feel like I should share a perspective from Cognitive Science/Psychology.

In theoretical/experimental Psychology, the dominant paradigm is a computational/representational paradigm. Take vision for example. The accepted facts are that we receive as input an impoverished view of the world, insufficient to know what's really out there. So we have to take that input and build upon it, based on assumptions and past experiences and what-have-you, until we have an internal representation of the external world. And then we can reason with this internal representation, we can refer to it when planning actions, etc. So in this view, we are not really in contact with the external world, only our reconstruction of it in our heads.

This view is probably familiar to you in some form. I am part of a group of scientists pushing an alternative view, however within Psychology we are considered fringe for questioning this dogma. We take a non-representational view of the mind. Going back to the vision debate, if you assume a stationary vantage point and a single snapshot of an "image", and if you assume that the final "output" of visual cognition is a representation in 3D-coordinates, then yes, the visual input is underspecified. However, if you assume a moving point of observation, if you realize that the really rich information is not in the snapshot but in the way the light changes over time, if you realize that in order to successfully control actions you don't need a full 3D map of the world, then there is enough input. Some of what we do is to work out mathematically that the information is there to support certain actions, then to demonstrate experimentally that indeed, people do seem to use these "shortcut" strategies that don't require intermediate representations.

Of course, there's a lot more to it than that. I could take about thermodynamics, self-organization, and lots of other interesting stuff. But what I wanted to show is that the debate about computation is alive and well within Psychology, and indeed the computation side is extremely dominant. It may take the tack of representationalism vs non-representationalism, however the representational theories are firmly computational. Research has the explicit goal of figuring out what is the storage/transmission format of these representations? What operations are performed on the input to create them? What operations are performed on them to use them? Etc.

Also, despite what some of the comments here suggest, at issue is not whether or not computers can model a mind. All the behaviors that we think are done without representations? We model them and study them with the aid of computer models. Of course. But that's not really interesting at all. And yes if you modeled a brain physically, you might get a mind (I'd argue you would need to model the body as well, not to mention quite a bit of environment). But that's not really the point. Today, Psychologists do research with the idea that they are setting out to discover the software that the brain is running. This is very different from the claim that a computer could model a brain, and it pervades how we think about minds, even (and especially) among experts in the field.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#62
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

I don't think the article is saying that the mind cannot be replicated by a computer. It's questioning the use of computational concepts to model human intelligence. To make the same point differently, if you wanted to replicate human intelligence in its entirety (rather than creating something capable of performing some well-defined task), AI is far too high a level of abstraction. You might be able to replicate a u…

Yes, thank you. So many people here are missing the point. The debate isn't whether or not minds are simply too special to be modeled by a computer. The debate is whether or not the mind itself is a computational system

I mean, consider the solar system. Can the solar system be modeled by a computer? Yes of course. Is the solar system a computational system? Is it organized on computational principles? Of course not. These questions are not the same thing, and yet conversation about the latter always seems to get drowned out by people saying "How could you possibly deny the former!"

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#63
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy. It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument.

Actually, this analogy is the foundation of our modern understanding of the mind and is accepted by nearly all experimental Psychologists/Cognitive Scientists. It is certainly pervasive enough to be arguing against. Few of them seriously recognize its limitations.

This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep and meaningful point by attacking the relatively superficial analogy between [current] computers and minds.

I think you're missing the point. No one cares whether the mind can be replicated on a computer. Researchers/theorists care about whether the mind is a computer. The solar system can be modeled on a computer, and yet there isn't an entire theoretical approach to astronomy predicated on uncovering the algorithms running on the solar system computer. This line of discussion about the capabilities of math and computation are beside the point.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#64
The arguments in the article (and repeated here by some HNewsers) are familiar: "If a computer does it then it's not a mind." Well, if that's the definition of mind for the sake of discussion then there isn't much to discuss. I see it differently, I feel that mind is a property of a working brain and that someday we may say that mind is also a property of a working AI program.

I don't believe in magic. I don't believe that there is spooky stuff in my head. I think that my brain is an amazing biological machine. The idea that there is some fundamental insurmountable barrier that will prevent strong AI from succeeding (eventually, if humans survive) would mean that there is some magical property of brains (human brains, whale brains, chimp brains, dog/cat brains etc.) that we will never have access to. This seems so unlikely that I prefer to believe that there is no magic and that AI will succeed. And I'm not saying that we need to mimic brains to have thinking machines. The mind and its thinking, feelings, emotions, and so forth may simply be emergent properties of advanced enough artificial or natural computing structures (e.g. brains).

If space aliens landed on earth tomorrow, would we say "Oh, but they can't think. They don't have brains like we have here on earth so they don't really think. They just process inputs into outputs."

I've enjoyed many books on this subject, but two older ones I recommend are: Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Hofstadter and Society of Mind by Minsky.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was refering to the experience of seeing, to the state of my mind. In other words, when I feel pain, I know with absolute certainity that I currently have this unpleasant feeling that I call pain.

Which does not mean that what you experience is pain.

Why?

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#66
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

I have a totally opposite view, I think it's almost certain that there's something very special about mind / consciousness. For example, notice that the content of your conciouness is the only thing that's certain. Law of physics can change. Or you might wake up from matrix (recursively multiple times). Basically anything can happen. But the fact that you feel good (or bad) at this moment is certain. Mind is somethin…

It sounds like you're a philosophical idealist. Have you read Berkeley? He argues that it's insane to believe in a 'material' world, since we can never experience that nor have evidence of it. What we experience are ideas.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#67
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

It's just the Church-Turing Thesis all over again, with a dash of metaphysical nondeterminism. So far, everything in reality seems to be "made of" either determinism or randomness. There might be a third option (and options beyond that), but we haven't seen one or thought of one yet. So far, computation can model determinism perfectly well (after all, computation is just very orderly, bottled-up determinism harnessed…

> Church-Turing Thesis all over again

I've heard it referred to as the Church–Turing–Deutsch principle [1], since Deutsch talked about the physical version of it.

I think it's interesting that the assumption that nature is computable comes so naturally, even though as far as I can tell it's entirely unclear whether it is or not. In particular, Deutsch points out that if the universe needs reals that includes a whole bunch of noncomputable numbers, and in fact our favorite model of physics for a significant chunk of history ('classical physics') did require reals and so was noncomputable.

I also tend to assume that nature is computable, but I don't think these assertions have really "held up for a damn long time".

As well as the fact that we managed with not much of a model followed by a noncomputable one for most of history, it seems to me that there might be a bias towards finding computable models over noncomputable models, which makes any reasoning based on observing that we've found a bunch of computable models suspect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-Turing-Deutsch_principl...

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#68
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming emotions are some kind of magic that happens outside of your neurons and synapses. They don't. Provided we can accurately simulate neurons, synapses and how they interact in an accurate enough way such machines could have emotions. The challenge is obviously in achieving the above.

Quoting Candace Pert, author of 'Molecules of Emotions': "For decades, most people thought of the brain and its extension the central nervous system as an electrical communication system . . . resembling a telephone system with trillions of miles of intricately crisscrossing wires." But new research techniques for studying peptides and receptors show that only 2 percent of neuronal communications are electrical, acro…

> Emotions seem to occur outside the brain.

But still within the body, and thus within this universe - in any case it's just a matter of definition of what the "brain" is, and we could just as well say the whole human is a brain, and emotions are just an effect of the "computation" that it performs. Whether this computation is electrical or chemical (hormones) doesn't change the fact that it's based on the same laws of interaction as everything else in the universe.

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