Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Inclusiveness at Mozilla

brendaneich.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 196 posts

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#61

Post by Xylakant »

hapless wrote: post #11

He just wanted to take an opportunity to "express [..] sorrow at having caused pain." Eich does not regret his actions, he's just sorry that you felt pain because of the things he did. Classic business-ese non-apology.

The standard business-ese non-apology follows a different pattern, it's "I'm sorry you felt offended", laying the blame on the victim (for feeling offended when no other person did). This one recognizes that the victim felt pain.

I sometimes feel sorry that some of my actions inevitably cause pain to somebody. Firing an employee causes pain to the employee. I'm sorry for the pain, but not for the action.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#62

Post by coldtea »

lawl wrote: post #18

I have commented on this issue before [0]. I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot, but I think even idiots are entitled to their opinion as long as it doesn't interfere with his work at mozilla . I think that is also what he's trying to say with his blog post. I think he made it pretty cle…

>I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot

Well, nothing obvious about it. It's just a cultural preference. If you were born merely 30 years ago, or in another culture, you'd be laughed for even considering the idea of gay marriage. Make it 100 years ago and you would be considered a madman.

The thing is, HE might have been raised in another culture than yours (e.g some conservative environment). And there's nothing objective to tell one belief is better than the other.

Allowing gay marriage is surely more permissive, but believing that "more permissive is better" is a value judgement, not some natural law.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#63

Post by GuiA »

macu wrote: post #49
GuiA wrote: post #24

Bob becomes the CEO of a large entity, FizzBuzzCorp. In the past, FizzBuzzCorp has been respected for its integrity, respect of its employees, and inclusiveness. However, it turns out that in the past, Bob supported groups that claimed that men and women did not deserve the same rights as citizens; for example, that women should not be able to vote, or be on a comparable pay scale. Now appointed CEO, there is concern…

I think we can recognize that Bob and FizzBuzzCorp are separate entities, and that Bob, if competent as a CEO, is also able to recognize and maintain the distinction.

The problem with this is that opinions have various degrees of influence on business decisions.

If FizzBuzzCorp is in the business of building CMSs in PHP, and Bob believes that there is nothing unethical about the diamond business, those two things are far apart enough that you can reasonably trust Bob's opinions on the diamond trade to not influence his decisions as a leader. Even if you think the diamond business is the most awful thing ever, it's extremely unlikely that that Bob's views on the matter will influence the writing of PHP websites, and you can probably overlook it as an employee/customer/investor in FizzBuzzCorp (unless the diamond trade is something you feel really strongly about).

However, every company deals with human beings by nature, and implicitly takes a role in social progress just by virtue of being a part of society.

If Bob has certain beliefs about the nature of the rights that should be afforded to some humans but not others based on things like their gender (or race, or sexual orientation, or other), then the probability that those beliefs will interact with his decisions during his tenure as a leader is pretty high.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#64

Post by coldtea »

untog wrote: post #55
nine_k wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally suppose that seeing someone as an idiot because of difference in opinions is more debilitating than having an arbitrarily wrong opinion. World is not black and white, and has never been.

I personally suppose that seeing someone as an idiot because of difference in opinions Are there any other reasons?

Yes, the canonical reason is because he has a reduced mental capacity, something that can (possibly) even be measured in standardized tests.

Not because he has a different stance on moral issue X.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#65

Post by lotsofmangos »

If he doesn't fully explain his position on why he donated to that campaign, then he remains hard to trust.

He seems to be refusing to state his full position on the reasons behind that donation, other than to ask people to take his word that his reasons are reasonable, while using the fact that people are being rude as a defense not to speak publicly on the subject, which isn't entirely reassuring.

https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/community-and-diversity/

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#66

Post by zabraxias »

hapless wrote: post #11

He just wanted to take an opportunity to "express [..] sorrow at having caused pain." Eich does not regret his actions, he's just sorry that you felt pain because of the things he did. Classic business-ese non-apology.

The typical CEO response would've been to lie about a change in position and then state the same policies as he already outlined. I don't agree with the man's personal stance on same-sex marriage but he never brought it to the work place - others did.

Integrity is higher on my values list than many of the tech and community connections he can bring to the table. I would also disagree with his personal beliefs in being a snake-handler (if he was one) but would find no issue with his leadership ability as long as he didn't bring those beliefs to the organization.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#68

Post by orthecreedence »

bluthru wrote: post #25

Would Mozilla appoint someone to CEO who donated $1000 towards a campaign on banning interracial marriage? Is being against same-sex marriage ok as a personal opinion just because we're in the transition period?

> Is being against same-sex marriage ok as a personal opinion just because we're in the transition period?

Yes. The jury's out on gay marriage still. We all know what the verdict will be, and people who don't support it will be carried along kicking and screaming, but it's still ok socially to oppose gay marriage.

That said, it was a stupid move on Mozilla's part. I'm sure he'll be great for the company, but now their masthead practically reads "We hate gays!"

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#69

Post by lawl »

coldtea wrote: post #62
lawl wrote: post #18

I have commented on this issue before [0]. I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot, but I think even idiots are entitled to their opinion as long as it doesn't interfere with his work at mozilla . I think that is also what he's trying to say with his blog post. I think he made it pretty cle…

> I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot Well, nothing obvious about it. It's just a cultural preference. If you were born merely 30 years ago, or in another culture, you'd be laughed for even considering the idea of gay marriage. Make it 100 years ago and you would be considered a madman.…

Don't take it too literal. I was just voicing my disagreement :)

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#70

Post by coldtea »

GuiA wrote: post #36
lawl wrote: post #18

I have commented on this issue before [0]. I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot, but I think even idiots are entitled to their opinion as long as it doesn't interfere with his work at mozilla . I think that is also what he's trying to say with his blog post. I think he made it pretty cle…

As a CEO, you live, breathe and sleep for the company. While the personal/professional division can be easily made for an employee far down on the org chart who does his job for 8 hours and then goes home, can the same be done for a top level executive, let alone the CEO?

>As a CEO, you live, breathe and sleep for the company

You'd be surprised. That's just a myth we have, to justify crazy salaries.

In fact, there have been tons of CEOs with golden parachutes who could not give a flying duck for the company that hired them. Nokia's recent-ish management comes to mind.

Post reply on HN