Medical Anarchy • Hacker News Board

Re: Medical Anarchy

#61

Post by wtbob » Thu, Mar 13, 2014, 10:44 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #27

I'm bothered that this article seems to believe that the rise in homeschooling (in large part by unqualified parents using low-quality textbooks and ill-considered strategies) is another example of people 'opting out' of some particular brand of oppression by the State, and that doing so will increase supply, or something? As far as I'm concerned, students have a right to a high quality education because without one…

> Just because they're largely minors doesn't, to me, mean that their parents have the right to deny them a future in favor of whatever their personal reasons may be.

No, that's exactly what being a minor means. One's parents have the right to teach one whatever values, facts and fictions they wish, while one is a minor.

But don't worry too hard about it: teaching is _not_ hard. Almost any parent who cares enough to homeschool is capable of teaching his or her children better than a public school would (which is not a very high bar to clear).

As for your anecdotal belief that the homeschooling families you encountered were incapable, I wonder if it was really your belief that they would not teach what _you_ think is true and correct.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#62

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Mar 13, 2014, 11:15 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #37

dragonwriter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I'm concerned, students have a right to a high quality education because without one their future will be a trainwreck. Just because they're largely minors doesn't, to me, mean that their parents have the right to deny them a future in favor of whatever their personal reasons may be. Sounds like the solution is to: 1) Define what a "high quality education" means in terms that it is objectively measurable…

The point is not that homeschooling provides a lower quality education than public schools (though I would argue that, on average, it does) - the point is that homeschooling is being done by unqualified people using unverified, quickly-considered techniques, while public schooling is at least largely done by people who got teaching certifications and their methods get public scrutiny. To me, the amount of criticism p…

> The point is not that homeschooling provides a lower quality education than public schools (though I would argue that, on average, it does) - the point is that homeschooling is being done by unqualified people using unverified, quickly-considered techniques

Sometimes.

Othertimes, its being done by highly qualified professional educators who are intimately familiar with their students and who spend a lot of energy on researching educational methods specific to their student(s), with far greater focus than when they are having 150 students passed by them each day on a conveyer belt.

Would I like to guarantee that no child is subjected to the former? Certainly. Would I accept the cost of preventing children from benefitting from the latter to do it? No.

> while public schooling is at least largely done by people who got teaching certifications and their methods get public scrutiny.

Yeah, and restaurants are at least subject to inspections for compliance with requirements of facilities and methods, whereas home cooking is done by unqualified people using unverified, quickly considered techniques.

But what I cook at home is consistently better than McDonald's, still.

Industrial mass production -- whether its of food, or education, or anything else -- is rarely of the highest attainable quality.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#63

Post by mattchew » Thu, Mar 13, 2014, 11:45 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #27

I'm bothered that this article seems to believe that the rise in homeschooling (in large part by unqualified parents using low-quality textbooks and ill-considered strategies) is another example of people 'opting out' of some particular brand of oppression by the State, and that doing so will increase supply, or something? As far as I'm concerned, students have a right to a high quality education because without one…

> And yes, there are some parents who do a great job homeschooling; I'm sure of it. I've just never met them, and I was extensively involved in local homeschooling programs back in my home town, so I interacted with dozens of homeschooling families, hundreds of homeschooled kids, and visited some of the organized conventions and programs that involved thousands more.

If you have interacted with this many homeschoolers and never met any you thought were doing a great job, this might indicate something about homeschooling. Or, it might indicate something about you.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#64

Post by lotsofmangos » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 12:12 AM UTC

wyager wrote: post #25

chimeracoder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very loaded (but easy) question. In the United States, we fought an entire war over the question of whether or not a state had the authority to secede from the federal government (the Union). The seceding states lost that fight. It would be very hard to argue that individuals have that right when the states do not. You may wish that it were different, but the fact is that individuals do not have this right,…

>In the United States, we fought an entire war over the question of whether or not a state had the authority to secede from the federal government (the Union). The seceding states lost that fight. So wars decide what is right and what is wrong?

No, they decide who is left.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#65

Post by dllthomas » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 12:36 AM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #46

baddox wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like your arguments assume that homeschooling is, at least on average, worse for the children than public schools. If homeschooling might be better for the child, then it doesn't make sense to talk about whether "parents have the right to deny" children public schooling.

The issue is not whether the average homeschooler is better or worse. The issue is the difficulties involved in ensuring homeschooling does not fail children. I was hoping the parallel between that and my later points about unlicensed doctors practicing over the internet would be somewhat evident. My post didn't actually say that the average homeschooling education is worse for children than a public school, but I do…

Given how frequently public schooling fails children, I think we should probably be somewhat liberal about permitting other options.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#66

Post by tptacek » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 12:51 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #10

eli5 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, do you think that if enough people want to peacefully live without government interference at all (e.g. without a government) they don't deserve to do so and they don't deserve, for example, to be sold a piece of land to completely secede from state?

The idea of "owning" a piece of land yet seceding from the state is itself a totally ridiculous concept. Without the state, you "own" what you can defend. God won't come down and defend your "natural right" of property ownership. If you can defend a piece of land against the established states, then good for you. Set up whatever anarchist utopia you want in there. But if you find that a voluntarist society doesn't al…

We should all sit down sometime and compare notes, the core group of people simultaneously sane enough to write comments like this over and over yet insane enough to keep writing comments like this over and over again.

You can give us the script for explaining rights and the state of nature. I'll tell you guys which of urandom, random, and arc4random to use. 'gruseom can give us a cheat sheet on what Albert Einstein and Pablo Picasso did and didn't say. Patrick can give us each a laptop sticker that says "raise your rates and never work for free". 'tzs will explain the secret trick for rolling the score over on the 1982 stand-up Galaga, and also the difference between first-to-invent and first-to-file.

Then we can all sub for each other. Maybe we can use a single account: 'tptzseominer11.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#67

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 1:00 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #60

kevingadd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable to assume that unless anyone has proven the contrary, which they haven't. If you were replacing a public school with a private school, I'd agree that it is unwise to assume the private school is worse. We're talking about replacing an entire school staff with a couple overworked parents, though. Many arguments in favor of homeschooling are about parents' religious freedom or about how the publ…

> I think it's reasonable to assume that unless anyone has proven the contrary, which they haven't. I disagree. I think it could go either way, as I have no real scientifically valid evidence either way, but I think the burden of proof is on the party advocating using violence to prevent the other party from doing what it wants. > Many arguments in favor of homeschooling are about parents' religious freedom or about…

Who said anything about violence? I think it's a pretty absurd leap to go from me expressing a negative opinion on homeschooling directly to me seemingly dispatching SWAT teams to round up homeschoolers.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#68

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 1:01 AM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #61

kevingadd wrote: post #27

I'm bothered that this article seems to believe that the rise in homeschooling (in large part by unqualified parents using low-quality textbooks and ill-considered strategies) is another example of people 'opting out' of some particular brand of oppression by the State, and that doing so will increase supply, or something? As far as I'm concerned, students have a right to a high quality education because without one…

> Just because they're largely minors doesn't, to me, mean that their parents have the right to deny them a future in favor of whatever their personal reasons may be. No, that's exactly what being a minor means. One's parents have the right to teach one whatever values, facts and fictions they wish, while one is a minor. But don't worry too hard about it: teaching is _not_ hard. Almost any parent who cares enough to…

We're not talking about beliefs here, we're talking about utterly failing to prepare their children for high school exit exams and college and adult life, which is what many of those parents did.

You seem to think teaching is easy, which makes me wonder if you've ever even tried to do it. My time tutoring students in college definitely makes me skeptical of anyone who says teaching is easy, and none of the schoolteachers/college instructors I know say teaching is easy. It is hard work.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#69

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 1:04 AM UTC

mattchew wrote: post #63

kevingadd wrote: post #27

I'm bothered that this article seems to believe that the rise in homeschooling (in large part by unqualified parents using low-quality textbooks and ill-considered strategies) is another example of people 'opting out' of some particular brand of oppression by the State, and that doing so will increase supply, or something? As far as I'm concerned, students have a right to a high quality education because without one…

> And yes, there are some parents who do a great job homeschooling; I'm sure of it. I've just never met them, and I was extensively involved in local homeschooling programs back in my home town, so I interacted with dozens of homeschooling families, hundreds of homeschooled kids, and visited some of the organized conventions and programs that involved thousands more. If you have interacted with this many homeschooler…

You can bust out lazy indirect ad-hominems all you like, but we're not talking about me here, we're talking about parents failing to educate their children, which is kind of a big deal. Your hurt feelings or personal religious faith can't really justify ruining other people's futures.

We're not talking about perfection here either; if someone decides to apply a different teaching style, or is okay with being relaxed and letting their kids take a slow approach to education, that's totally fine! I'm talking about parents utterly failing to prepare their children for college and for adult life, and I've watched that happen dozens of times. It inflicts tremendous emotional and mental harm on the kids and can destroy a decade or more of their life as they struggle to make up for it.

Re: Medical Anarchy

#70

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 1:07 AM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #65

kevingadd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not whether the average homeschooler is better or worse. The issue is the difficulties involved in ensuring homeschooling does not fail children. I was hoping the parallel between that and my later points about unlicensed doctors practicing over the internet would be somewhat evident. My post didn't actually say that the average homeschooling education is worse for children than a public school, but I do…

Given how frequently public schooling fails children, I think we should probably be somewhat liberal about permitting other options.

Liberal is great, as long as we don't completely fail the children. Going too far in the other direction and failing the children worse is a pretty shameful response.

I can understand the desire to do the complete opposite of the public school system if you believe it is the source of all your woes, but it kind of defies rational logic to abandon things like objective measurements, professional training, etc.