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Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

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61–70 of 79 posts

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#61
post #44
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from the metric systems, I've been starting to learn the US measurements, eg. I have memories and know how much is "a pound of meat". I still don't get cups or the fluid measurements though, except that 12 oz a beer bottle and 16 oz is a medium soda bottle (medium in European terms).

Some imperial measurements are pretty random (1 mile = 1720 yards, 1 yard = 3 feet?), but many of the commonly used ones are just based on fractions or convenient values instead of everything being base 10. Maybe this will help with the fluids. Looking at a table of fluid measurements, it is easy to see it is just a base 2 system. 2^-1 oz = .5 oz = 1 tablespoon 2^0 oz = 1 oz = 1 oz (2 tablespoons) 2^1 oz = 2 oz = 1/4…

Really, ALL imperial measurements are pretty random.

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with personal experience inside academic psychology and academic computer science, it's my impression that psychology is far stronger as a field, having a much more rigorous community dedicated to scientific truth, and exhaustive standards of review and experimental design. But, I'm sure that your general opinion is well-informed as well, or you wouldn't make such strong claims about a very broad field. Wh…

Perhaps your experience inside psychology is limited? Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman[1] would disagree with you, along with social psychologist Jonathan Haidt[2]. [1] http://www.nature.com/news/nobel-laureate-challenges-psychol... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html

This point is critical. A study can have a good methodology. But if nobody tries to replicate it, you have no chance of finding out that you are missing something critical. And with something as complex as people, "missing something critical" is something that we need to figure out.

And this isn't exactly a new problem for psychology. Feynman somewhat famously questioned a lot of classic research with http://neurotheory.columbia.edu/~ken/cargo_cult.html. I say somewhat famously because people in areas like physics have all read that essay. But in my experience psychologists are a little less inclined to read the criticism.

Even at the best of times, replication of results in a complex system is hard. See, for instance, http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj... for evidence that most published medical research is wrong.

But with psychology it is even worse. We lump people together by symptom, not by root cause. It is like lumping together people with migraines, head injuries, and caffeine headaches together. Then you find out that coffee beats a placebo for helping headaches, and give them all coffee!

You think I'm exaggerating? Read http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-dia... for verification that the NIH considers it a high priority research item to come up with classifications based on root causes, so that we have a chance of even being able to do useful research!

Yes, psychology has a lot of well-meaning people, and they stumble across a lot of interesting stuff. But it should be read with a critical eye, because the field as a whole does not perform reliably enough to compel our trust.

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#63
Irresepctive of the language, what's scary is how many people would accept high chance (2/3) of total extinction for relatively slight chance (1/3) of total success. It gets extra scary when you consider that politicians are presumably thinking this way about war, including nuclear war.

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps your experience inside psychology is limited? Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman[1] would disagree with you, along with social psychologist Jonathan Haidt[2]. [1] http://www.nature.com/news/nobel-laureate-challenges-psychol... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html

This point is critical. A study can have a good methodology. But if nobody tries to replicate it, you have no chance of finding out that you are missing something critical. And with something as complex as people, "missing something critical" is something that we need to figure out. And this isn't exactly a new problem for psychology. Feynman somewhat famously questioned a lot of classic research with http://neurothe…

> But with psychology it is even worse. We lump people together by symptom, not by root cause. It is like lumping together people with migraines, head injuries, and caffeine headaches together. Then you find out that coffee beats a placebo for helping headaches, and give them all coffee!

This happens (in medicine, not just psychology), and there's definitely room for hypothetical improvement. But in many cases, it's hard to blame people, because there's no way to do better without doing an unknown but gargantuan amount of research. For example, lupus is (or was when I had the discussion with my mother) defined as exhibiting X of a list of Y symptoms, where Y > X. This leads to situations like the following:

1. You, the patient, present with X-1 symptoms of lupus. By definition, you don't have lupus, and treatment for lupus is not warranted.

2. Time passes.

3. You, the patient, come back to your doctor with one additional symptom of lupus. Medical doctrine now states that you have lupus (not so interesting) and that, more interestingly, those X-1 earlier symptoms are symptoms of lupus (which you didn't have when you developed those symptoms), not of some other yet-undiagnosed problem. You can now be treated for lupus.

Obviously, that satisfies no one and is crying out for a more "reality-based" definition. The problem is that no one has a candidate for the actual physical causes of lupus. The best anyone's ever been able to do is recognize that the same set of treatments are broadly effective against a constellation of symptoms, which may seem to be related to each other or not, but which co-occur to some degree in people who respond to these treatments.

Of course it's a high priority to learn what the root causes of symptoms are, but that doesn't mean it's easy or even, in the general case, possible. You have to start somewhere.

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#65
post #63

Irresepctive of the language, what's scary is how many people would accept high chance (2/3) of total extinction for relatively slight chance (1/3) of total success. It gets extra scary when you consider that politicians are presumably thinking this way about war, including nuclear war.

They do, and they should. Truman made the gamble that using nuclear weapon would end the war early, and he was right.

Millions more Japanese would have died defending their homeland if there were a land invasion.

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#66
post #16

Out of curiosity, just checked the referenced paper[1] and there is no Korean/Japanese/French version of the questionnaire they used. It's disappointing. We all know these kinds of polls can be easily gamed by subtle (or not-so-subtle) phrasing, and without the questions actually used, I have no way of knowing if the "Foreign Language Effect" actually exists or if their choice of words in the translation affected the…

Well, actually more than how you put it, its actually the language people use INSIDE OF THEIR BRAIN that matters. An average person, talks to himself multiple times in a day, evaluating decisions, simulating how things are/should be, thinking about course of action etc etc. This is done in a language, which often ends up as mother tongue to the outside world. But the missing link here is the mental stamina. The brain…

> An average person, talks to himself multiple times in a day, evaluating decisions, simulating how things are/should be, thinking about course of action etc etc.

> This is done in a language

Why do you believe this?

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#67
post #19
post #14

It's the same thing with foreign units of measurement (in, ft, F, stones, etc.). Although I know there is a one-to-one mapping between meters and feet, I only grok a measurement given in meters. There's probably some conditioning behind this: every day you are reminded that a pack of salami is 200g, while a pack of flour is 1kg, and so on ... so that for each measurement you just access your library of memories that…

Coming from the metric systems, I've been starting to learn the US measurements, eg. I have memories and know how much is "a pound of meat". I still don't get cups or the fluid measurements though, except that 12 oz a beer bottle and 16 oz is a medium soda bottle (medium in European terms).

For me the worst would be temperatures in Fahrenheit !

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#68

It's certainly possible that this research shows correlation between less emotional thinking and language use, but it seems to me like Mandela's quote in the article is really a reframing of Goethe's observation that "The border of our world is the border of our language." It's no different really than the Romans and various "barbarian" tribes exchanging youth to grow up in each other's culture - know your "enemy," s…

I think you mean Wittgenstein, not Goethe ("Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt" Tractatus logico-philosophicus 5.6).

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#69
post #65
post #63

Irresepctive of the language, what's scary is how many people would accept high chance (2/3) of total extinction for relatively slight chance (1/3) of total success. It gets extra scary when you consider that politicians are presumably thinking this way about war, including nuclear war.

They do, and they should. Truman made the gamble that using nuclear weapon would end the war early, and he was right. Millions more Japanese would have died defending their homeland if there were a land invasion.

Freeman Dyson: "I changed my mind about an important historical question: did the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bring World War Two to an end? Until this year I used to say, perhaps. Now, because of new facts, I say no. This question is important, because the myth of the nuclear bombs bringing the war to an end is widely believed. To demolish this myth may be a useful first step toward ridding the world of nuclear weapons."

http://www.edge.org/response-detail/11732

Re: Mandela was right: the Foreign Language Effect

#70
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychology studies are (in my general opinion) notoriously poor science to the point that the vast majority of them are worthless fluff useful only for sensational headlines.

As someone with personal experience inside academic psychology and academic computer science, it's my impression that psychology is far stronger as a field, having a much more rigorous community dedicated to scientific truth, and exhaustive standards of review and experimental design. But, I'm sure that your general opinion is well-informed as well, or you wouldn't make such strong claims about a very broad field. Wh…

Psychology isn't really comparable to computer science since computer science is the study of a manmade system, making it more like mathematics. Computer science is not a traditional "science" studying the mechanisms of an unknown phenomenon, so concepts like "experimental design" aren't easily mappable.
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