Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#61

Post by crazy1van » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:14 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #42

This case is a beautiful demonstration of the dynamics of both "free market" and regulation. Free market dynamics demand (in this case as in all cases) that large players must never compete on prices or wages (as your competitors have the resources to fight back, so competition on price just makes everyone worse off). On the other hand, regulation was used both to stop an exploitation by the market (antitrust), as we…

" On the other hand, regulation was used both to stop an exploitation by the market "

I don't see any evidence that regulation stopped the behavior in this case. Perhaps the law will be used after the fact to sue or jail some people, but it doesn't seem to be what actually stopped the problem.

As another poster said, the class action date ranges end in 2009 because Facebook (a private company) wouldn't play ball.

Capitalism is a messy system, but it does tend to self correct in the long run.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#62

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:17 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #54

dredmorbius wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with earlier numbers: sounds like it should be enough for anybody, but I can think of a number of other companies which have been excluded from the suit which should be included. Cisco comes to mind.

I think he's saying he loves that it's 2^6 (K) programmers.

Yes, I got that. As in 64k (or 640k) ought to be enough for anyone.

And my point was, well, it's not ;-)

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#63

Post by hga » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:26 PM UTC

tn13 wrote: post #23

This is really pathetic. I can understand companies being ruthless in maximizing their profits but this sort of move is seriously counter productive. If the wages are not competitive it also means less incentive for bright youngsters to get into these professions. If this kind of agreements become more common, I think that will be like we killing our future.

Well, it was one way of getting around California's unique non-competes are unenforceable law.

I believe that more than anything else, that's responsible for the Bay Area's long term technological ecosystem success.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#64

Post by rapind » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:29 PM UTC

dman wrote: post #58

rapind wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's saying he loves that it's 2^6 (K) programmers.

That sir is not a serious definition of 64k. We all know 64k == 65536 ( 2^16 ).

touché

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#65

Post by geebee » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

I'm really glad to see that this issue is getting more coverage in the mainstream press. There was an article/editorial a while back (discussed on HN) from the guardian, but unfortunately, the writer used the incident (the collusion) to go on a rant about how valley leaders are hypocritical libertarians. That (reasonably enough) lead to a long debate about whether the leaders are libertarians even if they are mainly democrats, etc...

This article stuck to the point much better. I do think Mr Levy (quoted in this article) went a little far in suggesting that the engineers are a very well heeled class.

"Santa Clara County, in the heart of Silicon Valley, has the highest average wage in the country,” said Stephen Levy, senior economist at the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy. “San Francisco and San Mateo are not far behind. It would be a mistake to think of these plaintiffs as an oppressed set of victims."

Agreed, programmers in the bay area aren't dust bowl refugees. However, we need to recognize that the relatively high salaries don't go far in high cost regions (where many of these companies are located), and aren't that high relative to the higher wages typical of these regions.

Application developers in SF earn, on average, a tiny bit less than RNs and a whisker more than dental hygienists (links at end). I'm 100% ok with good wages for nurses and dental hygienists, but keep in mind that these tech companies have been almost frantically lobbying congress to do something about a severe shortage of highly educated programmers and engineers.

Well, first and foremost, how about you stop colluding to suppress their wages? That might attract a few more people into the field.

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-b...

http://blog.sfgate.com/gettowork/2013/12/17/what-the-most-co...

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#66

Post by pron » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 3:36 PM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #61

pron wrote: post #42

This case is a beautiful demonstration of the dynamics of both "free market" and regulation. Free market dynamics demand (in this case as in all cases) that large players must never compete on prices or wages (as your competitors have the resources to fight back, so competition on price just makes everyone worse off). On the other hand, regulation was used both to stop an exploitation by the market (antitrust), as we…

" On the other hand, regulation was used both to stop an exploitation by the market " I don't see any evidence that regulation stopped the behavior in this case. Perhaps the law will be used after the fact to sue or jail some people, but it doesn't seem to be what actually stopped the problem. As another poster said, the class action date ranges end in 2009 because Facebook (a private company) wouldn't play ball. Cap…

The practice stopped because of an agreement reached with the Justice Department[1]. I don't know which theoretical model leads you to believe that capitalism tends to correct itself, as historical evidence suggests otherwise: that the free market tends to converge towards feudalism (in the broad sense) – as happened in the US in the late 19th and early 20th century – or crisis; any corrections in course have always been due to public uproar which led to increased regulation.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/18/technology/18google.html

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#67

Post by sergiosgc » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

tn13 wrote: post #23

This is really pathetic. I can understand companies being ruthless in maximizing their profits but this sort of move is seriously counter productive. If the wages are not competitive it also means less incentive for bright youngsters to get into these professions. If this kind of agreements become more common, I think that will be like we killing our future.

Companies do not, usually, plan decades ahead. They manage the next quarter and plan the next three years. Youngsters entering or not a professional area is something that takes 20 years to produce a measurable effect.

Government, is the one that should do the multi decade planning.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#68

Post by smtddr » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #33

suprgeek wrote: post #8

I have personally witnessed the frustrating side of this "no poaching" pact. A close friend was tired of the "Manager Arrogance" at one of these colluding companies. He quietly put out the word,pretty quickly got approached by a hiring manager at another company - things were going swimmingly. Then the Hiring manager put in the Req to HR - a V.P. called him personally and but confirmed this "no poaching" B.S. The wag…

What about quitting first after knowing of this fact?

Back in AT&T around 2005-2006 a "change of guard" occurred and a very technical team supporting SAP systems lost about half their staff to HP within 3 months. Rumor has it that at&t upper-management had a conversation with HP and a few other people who wanted to go had the door shut in their face.

I know of at least one person who had to quit her job... wait 2 weeks... then HP picked her up. Risky indeed if HP couldn't make good on their promise, but it worked that time.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#69

Post by walshemj » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #53

drakaal wrote: post #26

This is the 99% lead charge that annoys me the most. (especially since many of the people leading it aren't 99%'ers they just think they are) The assumption is that the only places to work are the big companies. Anti-Poaching agreements are rarely about the Money and more about the "I won't steal your trade secrets if you don't steal mine" types of "we can't patent this stuff" stand offs. It is also protection agains…

If you are in a non C-level salaried position, and you don't have a few million in liquid assets, it is exceedingly unlikely you are a 1%er.

exactly a BART train driver earns about the same as a developer and will have overtime and a much much better pension.

Same in the UK a tube driver earns far more than the average developer does in London and has a Final Salary pension plus overtime.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#70

Post by walshemj » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 5:10 PM UTC

hanswesterbeek wrote: post #57

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could use a bit more self-reflection and a little less shooting the messenger around here. If you only want to read happy happy joy, disruption yeah, cheerleader stories about how awesome the tech industry is, I suggest TechCrunch. Our industry has a pervading attitude of treating anybody who is not "us" as roadkill on the highway to progress. That's going to turn against us a lot harder then these few relatively…

Exactly. The tech-industry is horribly naive. It operates based on the idea that the general public perceives them as those friendly shy nerdy guys from school. Wake up, guys. People have had tech giants invade their life way too much and they've all seen in The Social Network what kind of person a poster boy like Mark Zuckerberg really is.

And when they need a scapegoat for the rescission they look around and think ok we bullied them in school with no come back and they are crap a lobbying as a group so lets go to town on techies.

Its the "Anti globalization of fools" want to rile up your nice political machine just go "techie techie techie" any one get the reference to the infamous political observation I am making here.