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A birthday present from Broadcom

raspberrypi.org

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Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#61
post #20

Well, let's see if someone can get Android to use the GPU now. And yes, I'm not expecting miracles -- even though Broadcom never released their 4.x port, what they demoed on the-teaser-video-that-was-never-followed-up-on seemed "fast enough" for a number of purposes.

IIRC one of the bigger obstacles to RPi Android support was that the driver libs were linked against glibc. There will be other bumps, but just getting these linked against bionic will be a big help.

I'd love to see Android support, if only for Android's recovery system and read-only system images.

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ol' gzip download, because fuck source control. edit: FWIW, a friend who works there told me flat-out to just avoid them (I'm job-hunting)

This is almost a universal problem with firmware and chip engineers, who are generally older and more experienced, and thus apparently can't be taught new tricks. There are also issues with bureaucracies in each and every semiconductor company (which are on average decades old) so firmware is usually hot potatoed around by management and ends up lighting the customers' projects on fire almost every damn time. I don't…

They also have to live in fear of patent suits. Open-sourcing a modern chipset driver is a pretty ballsy thing to do.

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope (though note, I'm biased for several reasons). In terms of performance per unit area and performance per Watt, VideoCore IV is about as good as you're going to get. There are chips with higher performance GPUs out there, but they get there by brute force: throwing area (and therefore cost) and/or power at the problem.

This is confirmed by the recent move of AMD towards extremely hot GPUs. You already see that in the most recent 290x, but they're talking about making hardware that is comfortable running at >100C. I'm not sure how relevant that is with regards to performance per watt, but I do know that heat is one of the most expensive (by-)products of electricity.

That's not really relevant. Broadcom's VideoCore competes against the likes of PowerVR, ARM's Mali, and Qualcomm's Adreno. Those GPUs are all designed for mobile use, and cannot easily scale up to compete with desktop/workstation-class GPUs due to architectural differences and fab process differences.

AMD's chips aren't egregiously power-hungry, they just sell into a market where the product segments are defined by the thermal and electrical limitations of the PCIe expansion card form factor. It will always be the case that the top of the line card draws as much power as can be delivered through the slot and two extra connectors, and as much as can be dissipated through a two-slot cooling system. If AMD can safely operate their chips at a higher temperature, then their cooling system will be a bit more efficient, so their thermal envelope expands a bit and they can increase performance by a few percent.

Early indications are that NVidia's upcoming Maxwell architecture achieves significant efficiency improvements due to being designed with mobile use in mind, but it hasn't yet been demonstrated in a large enough configuration to compare against high-end desktop graphics chips.

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#64
post #46

Celebrate the open source release of the drivers by giving out a price for making a non-free software run on it? Also one that the intended audience of the hardware is not allowed to play? Seems a bit odd. (The Quake 3 engine is open source and free nowadays, but the assets and maps are not, so you cannot run "Quake 3" without using the demo. So "Quake 3" is non-free.)

Who, other than certain parents with opinions they can't scientifically justify, says anyone isn't "allowed to play" Quake 3?

In Germany, giving Quake 3 into the hands of minors is an offence, for starters.

So, in our case, these nice people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_for_Media_H...

Like it or not.

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ol' gzip download, because fuck source control. edit: FWIW, a friend who works there told me flat-out to just avoid them (I'm job-hunting)

It is open source. You can put it on Github if you want to.

Generally speaking, that's not what "open source" means. Reading the license agreement is always required to determine if that's actually okay to do. In this case it's okay as long as you reproduce the license in any redistributions (e.g. hosting it on GitHub).

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#66

This is a step in the right direction. Does this mean that the RaspberryPi can run blob-free now or with one less blob? I don't know what else is needed for the SoC to operate.

Not quite yet. We're hoping to be able to provide a minimum-functionality blobless world fairly soon.

Are you able to give any indication what might be included (or not) in such minimum functionality?

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#67
post #21

If you want to go straight to the horse's mouth and just start hacking (this is Hacker News, after all!), the Broadcom downloads are here: * BCM21553 VideoCore IV graphics driver source: http://www.broadcom.com/docs/support/videocore/Brcm_Android_... * BCM21553 VideoCore IV documentation: http://www.broadcom.com/docs/support/videocore/VideoCoreIV-A...

Good ol' gzip download, because fuck source control. edit: FWIW, a friend who works there told me flat-out to just avoid them (I'm job-hunting)

Don't worry, they're going to have to release it again. This zip contains many files with copyright (c) Broadcom (and other companies) missing the 3-clause BSD license.

On an unrelated note, x86 looks like RISC compared to this chip assembly language :)

   vmul  -,H(1,0),3 CLRA ACC
   vadd  HX(3,0),H(0,0),2 ACC
   
   vasr  H(0++,0),HX(2++,0),2 REP 2
   ;vmov  H(0++,0),0 REP 2
   vst  H(0++,0),(r0+=r3) REP 2 
   add   r0,16
   addcmpblt r5,1,r1,loopacross

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#68

That's really a surprise. Broadcom is cemented in my mind as one of the hardest companies to get even basic datasheets out of. I know the saying is "don't look a gift horse in the mouth", but could it be that their graphics cores are not competitive in pure technical capabilities, so they've decided to compete on open-ness? I'm not really involved in that area of hardware/software.

Looking at the long term future of the market, Broadcom's move isn't surprising at all. Broadcom (and Qualcomm for that matter) is feeling a lot of pressure from Intel and NVidia, both of whom have a lot of new stuff that are scaring competitors (which is fucking great for us). They're scared not from just a technological or capital/market perspective, but also from a community exposure one. They're both firing on all cylinders right now improving their technology and trying to get as many engineers to use it as possible. While firmware engineers tend to be older, there is a constant cycle and the industry is starting to see the importance of open source, especially as die complexity grows and more and more testing is required for each silicon design.

Intel: 2.5W TDP quad core Atoms with Intel's x86 instruction pipeline and memory management unit have been released as well as a low cost SDR that should be able to dynamically switch between unlicensed, GSM, CDMA, and LTE spectrum. Intel's graphics work is also quickly catching up and will soon start trickling into their low power embedded chips. Intel has also made clear moves with Galileo to open up their technology to the hobbyist engineers.

NVIDIA: The Tegra K1 is out to NVIDIA's partners (supposedly it beats VideoCore and even low end integrated desktop graphics) and they are currently being worked into tablets. NVIDIA also has recently released the i500, their own software defined radio to compete with Intel, and both companies have the resources to end the lock-in that Qualcomm and Broadcom have had in their respective baseband markets. If you're already buying radios from them, it makes sense to get your processor from them too and Broadcom may be trying to hedge against that.

NVIDIA (and maybe Intel) aren't known to be pioneers of open source but they're better than most other Silicon companies and everyone else is really starting to feel the pressure. The problem of supporting many different device configurations is an old one on desktop systems and that problem is only magnified 10x for embedded engineers because of the opacity. With Intel and NVIDIAs expertise on the desktop as they're running full steam ahead into embedded (and kicking ass along the way), they're scary to the old guard.

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is open source. You can put it on Github if you want to.

Generally speaking, that's not what "open source" means. Reading the license agreement is always required to determine if that's actually okay to do. In this case it's okay as long as you reproduce the license in any redistributions (e.g. hosting it on GitHub).

The original article states that the code is licensed under a 3-clause BSD license. The 3-clause BSD license permits redistribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses

Re: A birthday present from Broadcom

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is confirmed by the recent move of AMD towards extremely hot GPUs. You already see that in the most recent 290x, but they're talking about making hardware that is comfortable running at >100C. I'm not sure how relevant that is with regards to performance per watt, but I do know that heat is one of the most expensive (by-)products of electricity.

That's not really relevant. Broadcom's VideoCore competes against the likes of PowerVR, ARM's Mali, and Qualcomm's Adreno. Those GPUs are all designed for mobile use, and cannot easily scale up to compete with desktop/workstation-class GPUs due to architectural differences and fab process differences. AMD's chips aren't egregiously power-hungry, they just sell into a market where the product segments are defined by t…

I stand corrected.
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