Live data from Hacker News

In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

blog.lawnstarter.com

61–69 of 69 posts

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#61
I have worked 60+ hour weeks for significant periods of time and in various roles, including as CTO of a dot-com startup and as a trader at Morgan Stanley.

I differentiate between working long hours for yourself (e.g. as a business owner or startup founder) versus for someone else (i.e. as an employee). My observations here are generally about situations where you're working for someone else (although some have general relevance). For business owners and founders, motivations and rewards are very different, and I think that, for them, the decision to work long hours or not is a far more subjective and personal one.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about working long hours, as long as it is the exception (and for relatively short periods of time), rather than the rule. For example, if you're working for a startup and you've got a big product launch coming up, it makes absolute sense to put in extra effort in the run-up to the deadline to add new functionality, eradicate bugs, etc. However, if you are expected to put in 60-hour weeks as a matter of course, that's not good. Work-Life balance is important (and gets more important as you get older).

If you are expected to put in 60-hour weeks as a matter of course and your boss doesn't, I would advise you to quit that job as quickly as it is feasible to do so.

Working long hours wears you down, especially in roles where high concentration is required. I used to work 12-hour days as a trader and, come the weekend, I'd be so exhausted that I'd usually sleep in on Saturday and Sunday until the early afternoon. That's not a good lifestyle.

I also believe that working long hours has a negative impact on creativity and the ability to make intuitive leaps. In my experience, taking a break and stepping back from a difficult problem can often yield a solution. If your work hours do not allow your brain enough downtime from work to disengage from your work problems and engage other things (beyond simply resting), your productivity is likely to take a significant hit, in my opinion.

Finally, there's the impact on your mood. If you're not actually enjoying working long hours, it's likely to make you impatient and irritable, and that will have a knock-on effect on the atmosphere at work.

Certain types of companies (law firms and investment banks, for example) seem to rely heavily on getting more junior people to work long hours. They're able to do that because the rewards that come with climbing the corporate ladder are significant - partners and managing directors get paid a lot of money and, in order to have a chance of getting promoted to that level, you have to serve your time and put in long hours. For many young (and, some might say, foolish) people, the long-term carrot (Ferrari-level income) outweighs the downside of having practically no life during one's 20s. Because of that, I think their decision is closer in nature to a business owner's or startup founder's than a pure employee's.

Bottom line (and TL;DR): It's up to each individual to make their own decision based on their motivations and personal circumstances.

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#63
post #62
post #22

I didn't read the article but I can speak with experience. The 60 hour work week does not work. The challenge is to try to do everything within 40. If you need more time then you're not doing it right.

I got a downvote. Thanks HN.

You commented on the article but you didn't read the article? I'm not surprised you got a downvote.

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#64
post #53
post #38

The problem about 60+ hour work weeks is that it's nothing but utter cheating by employers. It means they are too cheap to pay you what you are really worth (you are being paid for 40 hours of work, but work over 50% more thus severely constricting your 'hourly' rate) and too cheap to hire enough people to do the job (i.e. 2 people need to do the work that 3 people are supposed to do). Nothing more, nothing less.

Not necessarily true. If people weren't getting compensated in some way they would leave. Investment bankers work 80-120 hours per week, and they get paid as such. Same with lawyers.

How does your average Silicon Valley 60+ hour worker get extra compensation for those additional hours that are expected of him (beyond the contractually agreed 40 hours)?

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#65
post #53
post #38

The problem about 60+ hour work weeks is that it's nothing but utter cheating by employers. It means they are too cheap to pay you what you are really worth (you are being paid for 40 hours of work, but work over 50% more thus severely constricting your 'hourly' rate) and too cheap to hire enough people to do the job (i.e. 2 people need to do the work that 3 people are supposed to do). Nothing more, nothing less.

Not necessarily true. If people weren't getting compensated in some way they would leave. Investment bankers work 80-120 hours per week, and they get paid as such. Same with lawyers.

How does your average Silicon Valley 60+ hour worker get extra compensation for those additional hours that are expected of him (beyond the contractually agreed 40 hours)?

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#66
post #64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily true. If people weren't getting compensated in some way they would leave. Investment bankers work 80-120 hours per week, and they get paid as such. Same with lawyers.

How does your average Silicon Valley 60+ hour worker get extra compensation for those additional hours that are expected of him (beyond the contractually agreed 40 hours)?

Faster advancement within the company. Executives aren't in their position simply because they are smarter than everyone else. After an IQ of 120-125, intelligence is not a good predictor of success (according to Malcolm Gladwell at least). Hard work plays a role.

If you want to work a normal work week and a normal life, great. But sometimes to achieve great things you have to make sacrifices.

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely right. Just because a few driven individuals can survive Navy SEAL selection (BUD/S) doesn't mean that BUD/S is the optimal practice for everyone to have a productive, balanced, or happy life. Some people do fine on 60 hours a week. Some people burn out on 40 hours. Some people sleep 5 hours a night. Some people delude themselves into thinking that 5 hours a night is all they need and then sleep 14 hours o…

Except that this guy wants and expects to only hire Navy SEALs. "All else being equal, why would I hire someone that works 40 hour weeks when there are a ton of other people willing to work 60?" To which I'd ask, why would someone who isn't horribly naive work 60 hours to make you rich?

Well, yeah, leaders need to lead from the front, or at least give a strong impression of doing so. Otherwise, people will ask your question, and for good reason.

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite the 100+ years of research. I've looked into it, and found very little. All I've found is a few results like the average construction worker can only productively work 60 hour weeks for about 6 weeks in a row before fatigue sets in. For example: http://www.danzpage.com/Construction-Management-Resources/Ca... (Hourly productivity is lower during the 60 hour weeks, but weekly product is higher.) I have neve…

You keep popping up on these threads making wild claims like this. You're like an evolution denier, you keep pushing this weird agenda, but I just don't understand why. People keep giving you the research and yet somehow you don't read it and then claim there is none. It is simple to find research about manual work showing 40 hours per week is optimal. It is simple to find research showing that for knowledge workers…

[deleted]

Re: In Defense of the 60+ Hour Work Week

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the research. It doesn't back up the claims made by the OP. Last time you you were trying to claim 40-60 hours was an 'optimal' working time for manual labour and linked research yourself which showed that it wasn't. The research linked to shows that weekly product (which is not the same as hourly productivity) can be maximized by anything from 40-60 hours, depending on the nature of the work and the durati…

The quote accompanying those figures: the majority based on 10-hour workdays and an overtime schedule of four consecutive weeks FOUR WEEKS. Did you read that bit? Productivity continues to drop after 4 weeks (with some parts of it suggesting the productivity drop stops around week 16ish). You're a lost cause.

You're the one claiming there's a huge body of research disproving his claims. Your link upthread points to stuff that supports his argument and other stuff that counts as weak evidence against. Nowhere is there anything remotely like disproof. You can also find evidence (e.g. in http://cmdept.unl.edu/drb/Reading/overtime2.htm from the link above) that how you structure your work and rest periods can improve your production. After all, somebody doing office work 60 hours a week with some regular exercise is probably going to outperform somebody like me, who's fat and doesn't exercise. I certainly outperform myself on days that I walk to the office instead of driving. There's clearly some variance involved in individual employees' age, health, height, diet, and attitude, so it should be obvious that you can't just talk about averages over the construction industry and apply them to programming, and to all programmers, with the degree of certainty that you hold.
Post reply on HN