Dogecoin market manipulation? • Hacker News Board

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#61

Post by patrickg_zill » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:02 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Meh. The only reason the price is as low as it is currently is that A) $850,000 needs to be added to the market every single day just to keep the price stable B) Coinbase et al. literally can't convert dollars to BTC fast enough. The situation is similar to how whenever Apple releases a new iPhone, it takes literally months until there is enough supply to match the demand. While this market manipulation is blatantly…

Some people do hold the coins, though. I am not sure what the percentage is. In my case I have some Doge and have not sold any at this point.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#62

Post by Atroxide » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:02 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #46

XorNot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is when the game is purely driven by luck. Investing is when the instrument has measurable properties and explanations for why it will become more valuable - i.e. you invest in making your factory larger, so it can produce product more cheaply. Betting on completely unregulated currency markets (which have good reasons that they shouldn't have any value at all) is gambling, because you're entirely depending…

Investing has a luck component to it as well. The way I like to think of it is, it's gambling when your expected rate of return is negative or zero. It's investing when it is positive. This is why a gambler is gambling, but a casino is investing/running a business.

nicely put, never thought of it like that.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#63

Post by joosters » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #42

gnur wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investing always is a gamble.

Gambling is when the game is purely driven by luck. Investing is when the instrument has measurable properties and explanations for why it will become more valuable - i.e. you invest in making your factory larger, so it can produce product more cheaply. Betting on completely unregulated currency markets (which have good reasons that they shouldn't have any value at all) is gambling, because you're entirely depending…

Not at all. Is betting on a football match purely luck? Of course not, there's the skill of the teams and luck involved.

Investing == gambling. You can buy shares. Or you can make a bet with a spread-betting financial company that pays out in the same way that the shares do. We call one investing and other gambling, but there is no difference.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#64

Post by DennisP » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:07 PM UTC

socillion wrote: post #47

jeremyjh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you sure this is legal (everywhere)? No it isn't regulated by the SEC, but that does not mean that it isn't fraud.

Right now the prevailing attitude is that it's legal and nobody will get prosecuted for it. It's certainly possible for this to change, but premined altcoins (creators mine a % before making it public) and other alleged scams such as Quarkcoin (Max Keiser & Bill Still) have happened repeatedly. My statement was from the angle that if you get ripped off in a situation like this, there is no recourse for you, and not l…

I wouldn't expect premines to legally qualify as fraud, since by their nature they can't be done in secret. If someone releases a coin and you see it already has a long blockchain, you know it's premined and can make your investment decision accordingly.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#65

Post by hueving » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #54

rtpg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you explain why almost a million dollars needs to be injected into the market to keep the price stable?

That's the value of the Dogecoins being mined every day: Blocks per day: 60 * 24 = 1440 ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.0 ) Current block reward: ~500,000 doge ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.0 ) Total block rewards per day: 1440 * 500,000 = 720,000,000 doge Current exchange rate: 1 doge = US$0.0017 ( http://dogecoin.com/ ) Total block rewards in USD per day: 720,000,000 * 0.0017 = $…

That would make sense if every miner immediately sold every coin he/she mined.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#66

Post by XorNot » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

socillion wrote: post #51

XorNot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is when the game is purely driven by luck. Investing is when the instrument has measurable properties and explanations for why it will become more valuable - i.e. you invest in making your factory larger, so it can produce product more cheaply. Betting on completely unregulated currency markets (which have good reasons that they shouldn't have any value at all) is gambling, because you're entirely depending…

Some of these altcoins are the epitome of the greater fool theory, where most participants are perfectly aware that it is a rationally poor decision to invest in them but do it anyway because they think someone will buy it for more later. It turns out people can make huge returns even from investing in known scams - certainly not guaranteed, but it's better odds than gambling.

Really? Only "altcoins"?

They have the exact same mechanics, structure, and backing as Bitcoin...

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#67

Post by hueving » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:11 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #13

Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Meh. The only reason the price is as low as it is currently is that A) $850,000 needs to be added to the market every single day just to keep the price stable B) Coinbase et al. literally can't convert dollars to BTC fast enough. The situation is similar to how whenever Apple releases a new iPhone, it takes literally months until there is enough supply to match the demand. While this market manipulation is blatantly…

People are free to coordinate their trades as private players on the market. While it may be illegal I see nothing unethical about it. The entire point of the fucking market is to amass enough capital that you're not 'picking' stocks, if you're trading without an edge I really don't know what to tell you.

The point of a market is not for you to manipulate it. I don't wait to buy milk until I can amass enough capital to drive the price up.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#68

Post by mjburgess » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:13 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #23

The amusing/sad thing is that so many folks don't realize that only a few of the "market movers" actually profit. Those who don't have the inside inside track, will lose when those who make the call to buy and sell. The whole "we move the market" thing is accurate...but, the suckers who think they're part of moving the market are just the people giving money to "-wolong-". I have a hard time feeling sorry for people…

I guess it's like a pyramid scheme where everyone knows its a pyramid scheme and believes theyre close enough to the top that they'll still profit.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#69

Post by DennisP » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:14 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #46

XorNot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is when the game is purely driven by luck. Investing is when the instrument has measurable properties and explanations for why it will become more valuable - i.e. you invest in making your factory larger, so it can produce product more cheaply. Betting on completely unregulated currency markets (which have good reasons that they shouldn't have any value at all) is gambling, because you're entirely depending…

Investing has a luck component to it as well. The way I like to think of it is, it's gambling when your expected rate of return is negative or zero. It's investing when it is positive. This is why a gambler is gambling, but a casino is investing/running a business.

Good point, but an even better definition would take variance and risk of ruin into account. If you just look at expectation, then buying insurance would qualify as a gamble. I think most people would say it's more of a gamble to skip insurance.

Betting all your money on one hand of blackjack is a gamble, even if you've been counting cards and know the odds are in your favor. A casino spreading its money over millions of small bets is investing.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#70

Post by kolev » Sun, Jan 26, 2014, 9:15 PM UTC

Gee, I totally get somebody putting money into Bitcoin or mining Litecoin, but the rest are honest scamcoins (or at least - circuscoins). If you mine, then it's probably okay, although it still costs you real money (energy, hardware, opportunity cost, etc.), but to put money (fiat or bitcoins) into it - you need to be completely out of your mind!