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San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

theguardian.com

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Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#61

Post by brudgers »

macspoofing wrote: post #54
brudgers wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's get terms straight. Google is providing private mass transport. It's no more public transport than a charter liquor and gambling bus to Atlantic City. If it was public transport non-Googlers would ride for similar tariffs - ok that's probably inaccurate since poor riders would have their transport subsidized rather than Google's subsidy to those more affluent. Google's buses are solving more traffic problems in…

>If it was public transport non-Googlers would ride for similar tariffs ...and be subsidized by tax-payers (because public transit systems in big cities don't break-even on fares - and forget about capital projects, those always need government funds). So this is still a net-win for the city. Googlers subsidize a system they don't use to get to work.

A company in Mountain View is using San Francisco's public infrastructure for private purposes and not paying for the costs associated with that infrastructure. Furthermore a plausible case has been made that Google's use of San Francisco's public infrastructure is having a negative impact on some of San Francisco's citizens. The impacted citizens are paying for the public infrastructure in their city.

In essence the citizens of San Francisco are subsidizing the tax payers of Mountain View because of their unwillingness to create affordable housing and provide public transit that serves the needs of its workforce. Google's buses are the means by which that subsidy occurs.

There is nothing preventing Google from routes that pickup and deliver exclusively upon private property. Nor is there anything preventing Google from opening access to its bus service to the public.

There is not even anything to prevent them from operating their bus service at a profit...except the impossibility of doing so.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#62

Post by brudgers »

BjoernKW wrote: post #32

"Anthony Levandowski is building an unconscionable world of surveillance, control and automation," they wrote on flyers left near his house. "He is also your neighbour." What were those people thinking? They're subtly but very clearly trying to intimidate that guy. This is like saying "We don't want the likes of you around here." If those protesters really wanted to do something against surveillance and control they…

The wheels under the Levandovski story is Google agitprop. The protest was in fucking Berkeley. It was over condominiums proposed to be built in fucking Berkeley. And the warmongering angle was just fucking Berkeley's historical anti-warmongering manifesting itself.

The only nexus between the story and Google's buses is Google. And if any one in the world is in a better position to spin a story, it wouor constitute an improbable event.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#63

Post by fallinghawks »

myko wrote: post #16
rtpg wrote: post #8

I'm extremely biased because I think any effort to "normalize" a 40-mile commute is poison to any environment, but I still don't get why, if everyone working at places like Google want to live in SF, why can't Google and co. just have offices in the city? I get that they wouldn't be able to build their own little disneyworlds that way, but instead of having Google build an entire ecosystem, they could just have offic…

> I've never worked in Google-like environment, but the whole closed-off , prison-like state of the campus seems very off-putting. Where is this prison like Google environment you're talking about?

Agree, that's a most ridiculous statement.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#64

Post by fallinghawks »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #23
btian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you even visited Google's campus in Mountain View? There is no such thing as closed-off prison-like campus...

Texas has prisons out in the dusty plains, where prisoners are not bound nor fenced. Its the distance that makes it a prison. So in this way a very remote campus IS a prison - you have no practical choice but to exist in that ecosystem.

Yeah, right, prisoners. SF is the sole oasis of civilization on the SF Peninsula, surrounded by 35 miles of desert plains that happen to be covered with offices and restaurants, a couple airports, and public transportation.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#65

Post by fallinghawks »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #35
sokoloff wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the analogy, but anyone outside tech that reads an argument like that, especially if they've ever BEEN to an actual prison (even as a visitor), will have an extremely hard time hearing anything else about your argument.

Here's another one. A prison is a state of mind. I find the cute circus campuses offensive and distasteful. Stuck in one day in and day out, I would crave freedom.

And here's one for you. People who work for Google are there by choice. They couldn't be happier to be working with a bunch of like-minded, innovative people. Surprise!

(I don't work for Google. I know several who do.)

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#66

Post by JoeAltmaier »

fallinghawks wrote: post #65
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another one. A prison is a state of mind. I find the cute circus campuses offensive and distasteful. Stuck in one day in and day out, I would crave freedom.

And here's one for you. People who work for Google are there by choice. They couldn't be happier to be working with a bunch of like-minded, innovative people. Surprise! (I don't work for Google. I know several who do.)

Yeah; young people do lots of things to be part of a group. And they like shiny things. And they don't know any better.

Sure there are other kinds of young people, lets not pigeonhole them, but they're not working at Google is my guess.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#67

Post by JoeAltmaier »

raverbashing wrote: post #58
nirnira wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a free economic actor and you get to decide for what price you want to offer your goods and services. So are the people who own the particular good in question - property. And so are the people who are also free to desire this good. So far so good. So you have no right, though you might question the wisdom, to demand that the rights of any of these free actors be curtailed just because, for instance, a seller…

Thanks for your post, it's informative What I find it funny is how people complain a lot about Net Neutrality but then on the housing issue it's "free market for all and let's bulldoze SF and build high rise buildings everywhere". They are similar issues. There's no "perfect competition" (though it can be argued that there's no perfect competition anywhere, they're examples of restrictive competitions)

Confused: free market and net neutrality are coherent ideas. Both are a free market for the participants (not the government/lobbyists hoping to profit by price-fixing or supply-fixing).

Or should we conflate those with govt-supported monopoly (local cable companies) wanting to skim money for no work, with private citizens wanting to trade their personal property WITHOUT govt interference?

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#68

Post by macspoofing »

brudgers wrote: post #61
macspoofing wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If it was public transport non-Googlers would ride for similar tariffs ...and be subsidized by tax-payers (because public transit systems in big cities don't break-even on fares - and forget about capital projects, those always need government funds). So this is still a net-win for the city. Googlers subsidize a system they don't use to get to work.

A company in Mountain View is using San Francisco's public infrastructure for private purposes and not paying for the costs associated with that infrastructure. Furthermore a plausible case has been made that Google's use of San Francisco's public infrastructure is having a negative impact on some of San Francisco's citizens. The impacted citizens are paying for the public infrastructure in their city. In essence the…

Are you for real?

>A company in Mountain View is using San Francisco's public infrastructure for private purposes and not paying for the costs associated with that infrastructure.

You mean roads? Public roads, built to serve San Francisco citizens? Those roads?

And that theft that the despicable Mountain View company is committing involves providing a service for San Fran employees who would otherwise drive into work and congest the roads and pollute the air, or worse, not live in San Fran? It seems like the implication is that it's better that these engineering yuppies not live in San Fran. That's the subtext here.

>In essence the citizens of San Francisco are subsidizing the tax payers of Mountain View because of their unwillingness to create affordable housing and provide public transit that serves the needs of its workforce.

I really don't understand your mental gymnastics. How, under any reasonable interpretation, is it a negative for an upper-middle class young engineer-types, to choose to live in San Fran - pay San Fran property taxes, support local business by living and spending money in the area, as opposed to not. Your interpretation is insanity. Furthermore, you've got it all backwards as I've said. Those commuting San Fran engineers are paying municipal taxes. They are contributing to that city. They aren't contributing to Mountain View. They are a drag on that city. Every San Fran engineer is a drag on Mountain View, if anything. But that's why cities exist. To provide services like that because you're all part of the same fuckin country and the same fuckin state and the same fuckin region, and you're treating it like some sort of fuckin theft is happening from those foreigners 40 minutes away. Insanity.

San Franciscans really doesn't know how good they've got it.

//

I know there's an ideological reason why you're focusing on big evil Google. But it's actually San Francisco citizens that want to live in San Fran, and work at Google. Google doesn't care where they live. They would probably prefer their employees to live in Mountain View. It's San Francisco citizens that are choosing this.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#69

Post by mickt »

macspoofing wrote: post #45
rtpg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>leave the downtown-core decrepit and crime-ridden The companies aren't in downtown, they're out 40 miles away instead, so not paying local taxes or helping the local economy. Instead you just have the workers who basically just sleep in SF, paying property taxes but not even opting to using the public transportation to make it better. > San Fran is powered by a real 21st century economy, which many other cities and…

>The companies aren't in downtown The employees live in the city. >Based off of complaints from the tech community, it also seems to be a city with a lot of homelessness None of that is caused by having Google in the area. This is a cultural and a government regulatory problem (municipal, and state and federal to lesser extent). >The problem isn't that workers are living in the city, it's that they're not working the…

>If you're an employee you spend money where you live, not where you work

During the work day most of these people are 40 miles outside SF on self-sufficient campuses, often with free food. That means that during the week they're not in downtown SF supporting local cafes, coffee shops etc. But the same argument can be used for any commuter community, in this case it's reverse of many cities where people commute into a city.

Re: San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt

#70

Post by joeblau »

paul_f wrote: post #20
joeblau wrote: post #6

There is one thing that I've really come to love and respect about the city of San Francisco. They fight for what they want. I've seen protests for everything ranging from wars, to working conditions, to America's Cup worker wages. Most other places would just get rolled over by whomever has the money. Underneath this issue, there are some serious socioeconomic issues at hand that need to be addressed. One thing I've…

I love how you told everyone what a wonderful and caring person you are. And then slammed engineers. Well played. Next time I'd advise telling your story and avoid the temptation to smear an entire profession.

I'm also an Engineer and I'm not smearing the profession. Most of us don't want to work on something that doesn't make logical sense.
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