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Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

yalecollege.yale.edu

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Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#61

Post by jsun »

icambron wrote: post #49
jsun wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone acts as rational machines, professors' egos have to be stroked too. They'd like to think that they can't just be reduced to a number between 1 and 5. Besides which, I think exposing rating systems for courses creates perverse incentives. It's been well studied that students who get better grades rate courses higher. Is that really what we want to be measuring professors against?

> Not everyone acts as rational machines OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. I think that's silly, but fine: it's a real argument. But let's stop pretending this kind of paternalism is consistent with even a modest notion of free expression, because it's very clearly not. It says "you can only say things we appro…

Why is this a free expression issue? Yale is simply saying you can use the data we collected, but in order to do so you must show ALL of it, including comments. If Yelp changed their open API rules and said you can display the star ratings for a restaurant, but you have to display the text of the reviews as well, would everyone be up in arms about it?

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#62

Post by icambron »

callesgg wrote: post #50
icambron wrote: post #31

> In doing so, the developers violated Yale’s appropriate use policy by taking and modifying data without permission, but, more importantly, they encouraged students to select courses on the basis of incomplete information. To claim that Yale’s effort to ensure that students received complete information somehow violated freedom of expression turns that principle on its head. I think she doesn't really know what free…

That would be the definition of "freedom of speech" in many western countries. (or at-least i believe it is similar in similar countries other than my own, i have not fact checked that.) For example in Sweden we have laws that provide "freedom of speech". It means that one can ALMOST say what one wants to anyone. One may however not say/or behave in a way that is intended to offend a group of people. Saying such a th…

Freedom of expression and freedom of speech are synonymous, but I think the former is a clearer phrase. Freedom of expression is generally never absolute (e.g. the US has libel and incitement laws ruled consistent with the Constitution), but for what it's worth, I believe European laws against offensive speech are absurd and make a mockery of free expression. It's not really free if people liking it is a criteria for being able to say it.

The law, of course, is not in play here, because Yale is a private institution not wielding government authority. But the degree to which it supports free expression is exactly the degree to which it lets people say whatever they want.

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#63

Post by icambron »

saraid216 wrote: post #60
icambron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone acts as rational machines OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. I think that's silly, but fine: it's a real argument. But let's stop pretending this kind of paternalism is consistent with even a modest notion of free expression, because it's very clearly not. It says "you can only say things we appro…

> OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. Odd, I read jsun's comment to be claiming that the professors were incapable of handling the consequences, not the students.

You're right. That should say "because professors are incapable of handling its consequences". I think the point stands, though.

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#64

Post by saraid216 »

synctext wrote: post #11

"we need to review our policies and practices" Welcome to the 21st century. That single minor incident now escalated into a news item of several days. Lot of lost PR points. All because they feel the need to control the course selection process. Sad.

> All because they feel the need to control the course selection process.

It's almost as if the entire purpose of their institution was controlling the course selection process. You know. By offering courses in the first place.

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#65

Post by agarden »

tsm wrote: post #3

As much as I would love to sit here carrying on about how Information Wants to be Free, I do appreciate where she's coming from. YBB forced to students to actually read course evals and apply critical thinking to their class selection. YBB+ wrongly suggests that the quality of a class can be reduced to a scalar value. We've complained about this bitterly going the other way. How many app developers are frustrated whe…

If the performance of the professor in a class cannot be reduced to a scalar value, then it seems probable that the performance of a student in a class also cannot be reduced to a scalar value, and professors should be required to write paragraph evaluations of students instead of just assigning them something from an A to an F.

In other words, if reduction of complex performance to a scalar value is invalid, then the entire grading system that defines academic success is bogus.

Incidentally, I think that likely.

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#66

Post by chris_wot »

icambron wrote: post #31

> In doing so, the developers violated Yale’s appropriate use policy by taking and modifying data without permission, but, more importantly, they encouraged students to select courses on the basis of incomplete information. To claim that Yale’s effort to ensure that students received complete information somehow violated freedom of expression turns that principle on its head. I think she doesn't really know what free…

I agree with the second paragraph, but not the third. It's not really childish to remove data that is being used incorrectly. Once the information is removed, then it becomes up to the people using it wrongly to gather that data, and then use it wrongly. Till then, you could be reasonably said to be trying to reduce harm.

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#67

Post by chris_wot »

agarden wrote: post #65
tsm wrote: post #3

As much as I would love to sit here carrying on about how Information Wants to be Free, I do appreciate where she's coming from. YBB forced to students to actually read course evals and apply critical thinking to their class selection. YBB+ wrongly suggests that the quality of a class can be reduced to a scalar value. We've complained about this bitterly going the other way. How many app developers are frustrated whe…

If the performance of the professor in a class cannot be reduced to a scalar value, then it seems probable that the performance of a student in a class also cannot be reduced to a scalar value, and professors should be required to write paragraph evaluations of students instead of just assigning them something from an A to an F. In other words, if reduction of complex performance to a scalar value is invalid, then th…

Thank you. This is very insightful!!!

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#68

Post by JangoSteve »

jsun wrote: post #61
icambron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone acts as rational machines OK, but now you're arguing that Yale students shouldn't be exposed to free expression because they're incapable of handling its consequences. I think that's silly, but fine: it's a real argument. But let's stop pretending this kind of paternalism is consistent with even a modest notion of free expression, because it's very clearly not. It says "you can only say things we appro…

Why is this a free expression issue? Yale is simply saying you can use the data we collected, but in order to do so you must show ALL of it, including comments. If Yelp changed their open API rules and said you can display the star ratings for a restaurant, but you have to display the text of the reviews as well, would everyone be up in arms about it?

They're not talking about "free expression" in the generic sense. They're specifically talking about Yale's Freedom of Expression Policy [1]. Comparing this to Yelp doesn't make sense, because the Dean of Yelp never said, "I disagree that Yale violated its policies on free expression in this situation." The policy in question specifically states that Yale values "the need to be able to 'think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable.'" and acknowledges that "such freedom may sometimes make life uncomfortable in a small society such as a college. But it also asserts that 'because no other institution combines the discovery and dissemination of basic knowledge with teaching, few need assign such high priority to it.'"

I don't really have a bone in this fight, so to speak, but I do find it interesting that the Dean of Yale has such a problem with the way their students are using their data to express an idea, when their very own Freedom of Expression Policy says:

Yale's commitment to freedom of expression means that when you agree to matriculate, you join a community where "the provocative, the disturbing, and the unorthodox" must be tolerated. When you encounter people who think differently than you do, you will be expected to honor their free expression, even when what they have to say seems wrong or offensive to you.

Although, if we're being pedantic, their policy technically states that they expect their students and graduates to honor others' free expression, not that they agree to honor their students' free expression.

[1] http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#69

Post by JangoSteve »

deathanatos wrote: post #35

> Yale dean […] apologizes Perhaps I'm missing something, but I do not see an apology behind that link. A detail of Yale's reasoning, but not an apology. > However, I disagree that Yale violated its policies on free expression in this situation. I'm not sure what "[Yale's] policies on free expression" are, but my understanding here is that Yale blocked the IP address of a site because it was using some data that Yale…

> I'm not sure what "[Yale's] policies on free expression" are...

I would guess that they are referring to Yale's Freedom of Expression Policy: http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression

EDIT: While I'm at it, here's what I came up with when I googled "Yale appropriate use policy":

http://its.yale.edu/forms-policies/appropriate-use

Re: Open letter to the Yale Community from Dean

#70

Post by JangoSteve »

I've mentioned these in a couple responses in this thread, but if anyone is curious, here is Yale's Freedom of Expression Policy:

http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/freedom-expression

And here is their Appropriate Use Policy:

http://its.yale.edu/forms-policies/appropriate-use

The most interesting thing to me about these policies is that the Freedom of Expression Policy explicitly states how crucial it is to be tolerant and accepting of people's ability to express ideas that are "provocative, the disturbing, and the unorthodox," and that this means they value the ability to "think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable." And yet, they are having a rough time because some students used their data to express an idea in a way they hadn't intended or thought was possible.

At the same time, I actually couldn't find a single clause in their Appropriate Use Policy that had been violated. The only restrictions I saw in the policy were that their data be used only for non-commercial and academic purposes (which it was). I didn't see anything about only being able to use data in its intended manner. But maybe I'm missing something (for example, maybe the actual YBB site has its own Appropriate Use Policy separate from their IT policy).

EDIT: I also just realized I was looking at the Quick Reference for their Appropriate Use Policy, so maybe there's something else in the full text that was violated:

http://policy.yale.edu/policy/1607-information-technology-ap...

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