Live data from Hacker News

Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

rogerebert.com

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#61
3D is fine, it just needs a few things:

1) High frame rate - really, enough of this "24fps looks better" nonsense. We can make adaptive frame rates if need be. This kills the nasty tearing you get when cameras pan, particularly noticeable over fancy landscape scenes.

2) Brighter projectors - don't know why this isn't the case already.

3) Actually shot in stereo. There's a very good chance that the last 3D movie you saw was depth-ified in post process. Shooting in 3D is expensive and requires more editing, calibration etc, so people don't like doing it.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#62
post #61

3D is fine, it just needs a few things: 1) High frame rate - really, enough of this "24fps looks better" nonsense. We can make adaptive frame rates if need be. This kills the nasty tearing you get when cameras pan, particularly noticeable over fancy landscape scenes. 2) Brighter projectors - don't know why this isn't the case already. 3) Actually shot in stereo. There's a very good chance that the last 3D movie you s…

>enough of this "24fps looks better" nonsense. We can make adaptive frame rates if need be.

I don't even understand the 24fps logic, as all it causes is tearing and motion blur. We need better framerates, but across the board, not just in action spots, as 48/60 give smoother motion overall. The Hobbit was 48fps; I bet most people either didn't notice, or thought it looked better. Certainly, there was no appreciable motion blur or tearing in a film that would have been full of it at 24.

>2) Brighter projectors - don't know why this isn't the case already.

Already done, along with more reflective screens, but yes, still needs improvement.

>3) Actually shot in stereo. There's a very good chance that the last 3D movie you saw was depth-ified in post process. Shooting in 3D is expensive and requires more editing, calibration etc, so people don't like doing it.

Yep. This is the main problem. Having movies shot in 2D and made 3D in postproduction is like shooting in black and white and having a 6 year old colour them in with crayons. Native 3D shooting is easier than it was thanks to James Cameron et al but still requires more investment in skills, equipment, time, calibration, etc, and better ongoing reviewing and monitoring during production. Some people just don't like to spend money where they should, but still ant to reap the benefits.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was recently at the Exploratorium in SF (Embarcadero). They have a mirror there that tricks your brain into thinking you are seeing an upside-down reflection of yourself hanging in the air about 5ft in front of where the mirror actually is. I actually tried to touch the 'reflection' and my hand just met the air. My first thought was why don't we use these to create 3D images. Would your domed mirror proposal work s…

well yep, but that one has the advantage of using the lightfield already reflecting off of you and simply redirecting it back with relatively simple, shall I say, macro-optics. The kind of system I'm talking about needs a 2D image with enough "pixels" to fill a volume convincingly instead of just a 2D plane, and the optics would need to be far more complicated, precise, and created at a very small scale which would a…

One solution for holographic lightfields is to use nanoantenna arrays. Multiple antennas in an array, in which each antennas phase and amplitude is modulated is able to produce these directional lightfields by interference, and by modulation it's possible to change the shape of the radiation pattern without touching the antennas. In nanoscale, it could create waves in optical wavelengths.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#64
I think it is useful to compare with how stereophony works, and it might indicate that 3D is indeed a dead-end, a superfluous gimmick (as noted in other comments).

The simple --too simple-- view is that screens have to reproduce reality, that the world is 3D and thus that 3D will eventually win. But this has been proven false, at least for audio (which I know better).

Some people think they hear left or right by doing some triangulation between the two ears. Nothing more wrong: with only two ear we would not perceive height, and people deaf of one ear certainly do not "hear in 1D".

In fact we localise sound because of

- The shape of our ears. (See how complex are the ears of some animals)

- Tiny movements of the head.

- Past experience (learning) of the shape of reverberation and reflections in common rooms.

A full "real" simulation of sound localisation, which has been experimented and works, requires:

- Sounds recorded in an anechoic chamber (these are very small and expensive, you won't get a philharmonic in it, and playing music in this echo-less room is extremely painful).

- Microphone must be perfect, a thing that do not exist.

- Synthetic room reflections computed on the fly according to where the listener sits when listening (shape and texture of the room and where are the two ears in the room)

- A polar reflection model of the ear shapes of the listener.

- An helmet detecting tiny head movements and adjusting all the computation above accordingly.

- Perfect earphones inside the ears of the listener.

So this all works in theory and has been tested experimentally, but it has not crossed anyone's mind that we really need this to enjoy a properly spatialized concerto. We can approximate a soundscape enough with the very crude left-right localization provided by stereophony, and this is quite enough to enjoy good music.

It is certainly different for the visual field, but I would bet it will be ressembling in the big strokes: music, movies, books, painting, all these create illusions, automomous worlds that do not need to match reality perfectly. It needs to be realistic enough and based on accepted conventions: When we see the image of a plane taking off, we accept that our hero is likely inside, and that it is related to the story, e.g. not a random plane talking off as we would see from our window.

But it doesn't need to be "pixel-perfect", as exemplified by the many great black and white movies.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#65

Oh look, Roger Ebert. The ultimate hipster. The same man who says games will never count as art. He's just scared the entertainment industry is changing. I've watched literally dozens of 3D movies and have never once had any kind of side effect. I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy for most people - they expect to feel something, so they do. The brightness issue is exactly why 3D screens have higher powered projec…

I agree. 3D is an "obvious" step up, even if it's imperfect. And even if the vergence/focus issue is both worse and unsolvable by any reasonable technological means, it isn't the end of the world. People will get better at viewing it with experience, and people who have grown up with it will never have difficulty with it.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#66

Actually, the convergence problem is theoretically solvable with a light-field projection system. That is, instead of having 2 images that are simply "fed" into each eye but projected onto a flat screen that is not converged with the 3d disparity "information" contained in the images, you have a system where the screen emits a light field that your eyes can focus on at any depth. We already have consumer level light…

It's also (mostly) solvable with active lenses and eye-tracking. What you can do is infer distance from vergence and then adjust the effective focal distance of the screen.

I don't know how cumbersome the lenses would have to be, or how insanely fast the system would need to operate, but it's at least possible in theory.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#67
Why Film doesn't work and never will. The notion that we are asked to pay a premium to witness an inferior and inherently brain-confusing image is outrageous. The case is closed.

Isn't it also a trick to make the brain think that it's seeing continuous images instead of discrete single images?

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#68

3D strikes me as superfluous. Our brains already look at the images projected onto a 2-dimensional plane and infer the third dimension. It's absolutely a gimmick, and don't get me wrong, it can be fun, but it doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the viewing experience. Call me when the brain interface is ready and we can actually travel around in the space, because that's another story.

Tell this to a person blind in one eye and unable to perceive depth.

Actually depth perception is possible with only one view-port. Both my eyes work (for varying definitions of "work") but they don't work together very well (tests show I only tend to use one at a time, which one gets control depending on the location of the object(s) I'm trying to focus on and how tired I am) and I can perceive depth just not quite as well.

The main clue the brain uses for depth perception on top of the binocular input (of instead of the binocular input for those who don't have it) is parallax effects gleaned from moving objects within the view passing behind each other. On top of that comes knowledge of the world (how big things should be relative to each other) though that is very easily fooled.

On top of that the perception of parallax exploited further by moving your head. Ever seen a cat size up a jump is isn't entirely confident with? You seem them bob their heap up and down a bit giving them extra parallax clues effectively extended the effect of multi-eye vision into a second degree of freedom. This effect can be used by single ey eby moving the head more.

Binocular vision can help 3D perception a lot, which is why most creatures use it, but it is far from the be-all and end-all of it.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#69
Another Ebert declaration ('Case Closed.') where he betrays an incomplete understanding of the topic at hand. I personally liked 'As a editor, he must be intimately expert with how an image interacts with the audience's eyes.' contrasted against this part of guy's letter: 'Somehow the glasses "gather in" the image'.

Not to mention, of course, that there is always scope for better tech to come along. Sensationalism, thy name is Ebert.

Re: Why 3D Doesn't Work and Never Will (2011)

#70

Actually, the convergence problem is theoretically solvable with a light-field projection system. That is, instead of having 2 images that are simply "fed" into each eye but projected onto a flat screen that is not converged with the 3d disparity "information" contained in the images, you have a system where the screen emits a light field that your eyes can focus on at any depth. We already have consumer level light…

I want to be clear that not any of this is easy . I think as soon as you try it, your first attempts are going to be very blurry, squint inducing, and especially very dark. A lightfield display, in order to achieve the same level of perceived brightness as a traditional 2D display, needs to generate 2-10 times (perhaps much more) more actual light, with all the requisite power requirements that entails, since the lig…

Why would it need to generate more light? Suppose you told your lightfield display to simply display all white - wouldn't its light distribution be the same as a white LCD, hence taking the same amount of power?
Post reply on HN