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Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

nytimes.com

61–70 of 199 posts

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#61
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post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

" A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. " You've just described the current crisis of representational democracy.

Current?

I think it's the defining trait of representational democracy.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#62
post #2

What is it, do you think, that causes former critics of spying to become 'overseers'? The Presidency is limited to two terms, so it's not like it's being used to weild power. Are there honest intentions related to safety, or is it all about money/lobbying?

The Federal government is a byzantine web of regulation, conflicting rules, agendas and actions.

Big programs have tentacles so intertwined into things, it's difficult/impossible to unwind and even figure out what they are doing. Think of it from the President's perspective -- getting someone whom he trusts in a position to actually know anything about the programs probably takes a year.

Say you have someone on top whom you trust and the President says "dismantle X program". The bureaucracy is awesome and effective at slowing things down. Keeping up the pressure to do something that the bureaucrats don't want requires alot of energy. And with something like Intelligence, attacking the people running those programs means that they won't be motivated to make the President look good.

So from the President's perspective, you have to invest massive energy, take body blows when things don't go well and distract yourself from whatever it is that you ran for office for. It's a high cost, and the benefits are minimal -- nobody is going to carve your head into the side of a mountain for shutting down some Top Secret program that nobody knew about anyway.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#63
post #52
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. " You've just described the current crisis of representational democracy.

[deleted]

> If voters only knew that campaign promises are a signal, along with past actions and a lot of other signals!

You might mention that to the journalist who wrote the linked article, since he appears to believe that the change of opinion is remarkable.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#64
post #49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can turn that argument around just as easily; without honest campaigns, there is no incentive for an informed population, because there is no meaningful chance for popular support to elevate a candidate running an honest campaign to the same heights attained by those to whom all weapons are friends.

Politicians are public figures by definition. There is plenty of information out there to make informed decisions with or without the existence of honest campaigns. The only reason there is "no meaningful chance for popular support" of an honest candidate is because the voting population doesn't reward it; and perhaps more importantly, the voting population doesn't punish dishonesty.

> There is plenty of information out there to make informed decisions

It's funny you should say that, given the number of people who thought they were making informed decisions to support Obama, especially in 2008, and who have since found so many reasons to feel so deeply betrayed.

Short of mind-reading, I'm not sure how you imagine it possible for citizens, almost all of whom have lives to lead which do not revolve around the ambitions of the current crop of politicians, to inform themselves in as accurate and precise a fashion as you seem to consider trivial; for almost everyone, it comes down to a choice among competing sets of analysts, all of whom arrogate unto themselves the mantle of reliable authority, and all of whom have not only equal reason to lie in support of their own desiderata, but equal lack of compunction to dissuade them from such mendacity. (That's why they call corruption corruption; like any rot, it spreads.)

As for "punish[ing] dishonesty", I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on precisely what benefit there is in choosing one pack of liars over another. Given the track record of American politicians, and especially of American presidential candidates, favoring one in particular seems less likely to succeed at "punish[ing] dishonesty" than to act as a strong selective pressure in favor of the most skillful and least scrupulous liars available -- something I'd argue was not just perceptible but obvious in modern American politics, except that I think the presidency has been the province of liars since at least as far back as Andrew Jackson.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#65
>Mr. Obama was told before his inauguration of a supposed plot by Somali extremists to attack the ceremony[...]. Although the report proved unfounded, it reinforced to Mr. Obama the need to detect threats before they materialized. “The whole Somali threat injected their team into the realities of national security in a tangible and complicated way”[...]

So a non-existent threat was what made Obama decide that the surveillance state was necessary. Great decisionmaking here.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#66
post #53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If theres ever a time to do the right thing, it's in the President's second term: it's all downhill, what the pundits say doesn't matter to re-electability, since there is none (unless you plan on going to another office later on...)

> (unless you plan on going to another office later on...) Just curious, has a president ever done that?

Yes. William Taft went on to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court after being President: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Howard_Taft

Reportedly, he hated being President and wished he'd never done it, but loved being a judge.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#67
post #53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If theres ever a time to do the right thing, it's in the President's second term: it's all downhill, what the pundits say doesn't matter to re-electability, since there is none (unless you plan on going to another office later on...)

> (unless you plan on going to another office later on...) Just curious, has a president ever done that?

[deleted]

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#68
Everything that's wrong with the current intelligence approach in a sentence: "And he trusts himself to use these powers more than he did the Bush administration."

This completely vindicates Snowden's point about the current system being one of policy instead of law, and of enabling turnkey tyranny.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#69
post #58
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is fascinating how people lay blame. Oh, yes, very much so! For example, you seem quite effortlessly to lay blame on three hundred or so million people, and that's only counting those alive right now, with no consideration for those who've predeceased us, at least some of whom presumably could be expected, in your formulation, to have had a hand in creating the situation you so readily decry. But laying blame, w…

> What would you have us do? -- all three hundred million of us, of course. Vote. For for better people. That is the basis of any democracy. You don't blindly follow your leaders, and you don't blame them for their mistakes and carry on as if there's nothing you can do about it, because you can do something about it. You can vote them out, and vote better people in. The fact that those three hundred million Americans…

A glib answer, to be sure. What do you recommend regarding the unelected civil service bureaucracy which has such a large hand in how the United States are administered? I can't imagine seeing any president take on the State Department, for example, but having seen at least one senator do so, I suspect I know who'd win.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not current and it's not a crisis. It's working exactly how it was designed to work. We changed, not them. The Internet disrupted the popular perception of democracy by creating a massive global communication channel that is not under the control of the people in power.

It is fascinating how people lay blame. The most common thing I see is my fellow Americans blaming politicians, bankers, school teachers, lobbyists, cops, unions, almost anyone... except themselves. The truth is, the American people are the problem, and they've spent the last few decades doing everything possible to avoid personal responsibility for the shape of the country.

Personal/Individual responsibility is a dirty word. There is no incentive for a representational democracy to create an environment that fosters the development of personal blame. It can only grow and continue if it focuses on social responsibility and blaming the other group. Like 1984's Goldstein.
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