Live data from Hacker News

Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

lists.w3.org

61–70 of 424 posts

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#61
post #40
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it somewhat awesome that this whole html drm debacle is effectively what Richard Stallman has been saying for decades versus outdated entrenched old media interests. Except in this case, the web standards consortium is giving away your freedom for you. That is what pisses me off most, really - if big media was left to squalor in broken plugins and horrible drm, which should be horrible because its entirely ant…

> they are ending the open inter-operable web. It sucks. I don't know what web you have been browsing, but as far as I can see, HTML5 is just now starting to replace flash for online video and audio. I am much sooner ready to support EME over flash, if it helps that transition, despite the ridiculous ineffectiveness and inconvenience of DRM.

Why do you suppose that EME + CDMs will be a better solution than Flash? What advantages do you expect?

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#62
post #45

Why should DRM be part of a standard? Aren't plug-ins sufficient?

EME essentially defines a wrapper around a module, which can quite easily be a plugin, that implements the DRM. You can view it as a means to require smaller plugins than NPAPI, PPAPI, etc.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they thinking? The majority of the W3C membership want this work done, and the W3C is ultimately bound by its membership. Not working on this isn't an option — take the W3C out of the picture and it'll still be done, quite probably behind closed doors, which is even worse for the web; MS, Apple, and Google are all likely going to ship this whether the W3C specifies this or not; for better or for worse, it is…

Are you sure about that? The majority of the W3C membership is staying pretty quiet about it, at least on the list. Even if you're right about the requirements (it's hard to say, what with their being confidential and all), is it worth breaking the Open Web to make it slightly harder for folks to pirate TV shows? And if you're right, why then is every requirement short of non-user-modifiable client components being p…

> The majority of the W3C membership is staying pretty quiet about it

As gsnedders said, it doesn't matter. The EME spec is written and pushed by Google and Microsoft, and Apple is on board. Those companies have a strong financial interest to do what hollywood asks here, and together they account for a large majority of the browser market.

The only possible thing that could stop this is pressure on those browser vendors by users of those browsers - which means, for users to stop using them. So far, the public and even here on HN there is little interest in doing that.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the lists actively in quite a while, and no longer have access to Member-Only lists.) There have been votes about whether this is in-scope of the AC. As you can tell by work continuing, the vote passed. How many abstained (explicitly or by not voting)? I cannot remember, and cannot check. The requirement to merely make it more difficult, but not impossible, has been stated on several occas…

In which case they're being supportive in private, and utterly quiet in public. That's a neat trick in itself. But I don't think it's an issue of what they believe, it's an issue of what the actual licensing terms are. Those are the real requirements, and so far they've not been made available.

I don't think there's any WG which includes all W3C members — most members simply don't care enough to wish to dedicate resources to every WG, not to mention the extra obligations it makes them take on via the patent policy. The situation isn't at all unusual — just a more contentious subject matter!

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#66
post #23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you should not be okay with DRM. It's as simple as it's: DRM is the form of slavery.

> you should not be okay with DRM. It's as simple as it's: DRM is the form of slavery. Sorry Ivan, but voluntarily agreeing to access encrypted content is not comparable to slavery.

first of all, I agree that my message was too short and didn't have any arguments to positively contribute to the thread. Sorry about that.

Now, let me explain how did I come to this comparison (even if it seems rogue). To make it more specific, let's consider Raspberry Pi, which is one of the most open ARM boards and, at the same time, practices DRM. For example, its hardware video decoding capabilities might be unlocked, if a separate digital license is acquired in the store [1].

I am perfectly fine when people voluntarily agree to access encrypted content or "premium" functionality. The problem is that the need to put this DRM to the chip, has led to the decision of the manufacturer to make its GPU core a supervisor. GPU starts to work ahead of CPU, initializes its firmware and starts CPU at some point later ([2]). Additional GPU firmware (provided by a binary blob) may be loaded to support OpenGL and other related stuff [3].

Effectively, even if the user does not want to access an encrypted content or use the "premium" functionality, he is being kept in a jail to make sure this premium stuff is not used. Moreover, the supervisor capability of the GPU chip combined with a binary blob updates, makes it possible for the manufacturer to reduce the amount of allowed to the user.

The user of the device is treated as a customer, and it's the manufacturer who is the owner of the device, not the user.

Given these capabilities of the manufacturer over this aspect of the user life, we may start looking at the definition of slavery [4]:

"""Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation."""

At least half of the definition applies:

1. The customers are treated as property to be sold or rented. There're video dongles/boxes on the market which stream content to the TV. They would often allow only a subset of the video services to be used, even if these services are freely available on the internet. The manufacturers of this devices may actually sell the access to the users of this device to the content providers.

2. The customers may be shown ads against their will and their user experience may be altered by the manufacturer w/o their consent or right to refuse.

Again, that does not happen to the people, it happens to the customers, which appear as a virtual entity applied to the devices, but I really see some similarities.

[1] http://www.raspberrypi.com/mpeg-2-license-key/

[2] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16317623/how-does-raspber...

[3] https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware/tree/master/boot

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#67
post #45

Why should DRM be part of a standard? Aren't plug-ins sufficient?

EME essentially defines a wrapper around a module, which can quite easily be a plugin, that implements the DRM. You can view it as a means to require smaller plugins than NPAPI, PPAPI, etc.

So, why have that discussion inside a standards discussion, especially if it brings in confidentiality requirements? Let the publishers talk among themselves and write their plug-ins.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#68
post #41

This is all so ridiculous, rtmp for instance is as secure a DRM as its ever gonna get and that never stopped me from downloading a stream. Even things like HDMI/HDCP is broken beyond repair. And all of this should justify damaging the w3c reputation forever, what are they thinking?! This whole concept of DRM is just idiotic, its enough if one guy breaks the DRM and releases it. Why should I even bother booting a prop…

I don't care how it gets done, but if we need this to finally kill off flash than I am for it. This problem is solved technically so let's just get it done. Yes, every DRM will eventually be broken, but at least it satisfies the executives enough, so what's the problem?

I don't understand why purists on the email list end up holding up something that will ultimately be a positive thing from a number of perspectives. Security, battery life, and script-able/touch friendly controls.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#69
Great. DRM. The best example of shooting yourself in the foot ever.

Give customers encrypted content and the keys, try to prevent them from freely using the two together, undermine copyright fair use and first sale doctrines as you go along.

Intended effect - No Piracy

Actual effect - Paying customers get crippled products, pirates carry on regardless

It's crazy. And the more they try to lock it down the worse their products become and the better piracy looks in comparison. Pirates don't only beat the legit industry on price, they beat them on quality and availability. How can the industry allow this to stand? Let alone continue down the same path with their fingers in their ears shouting LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!?!

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#70
post #41

This is all so ridiculous, rtmp for instance is as secure a DRM as its ever gonna get and that never stopped me from downloading a stream. Even things like HDMI/HDCP is broken beyond repair. And all of this should justify damaging the w3c reputation forever, what are they thinking?! This whole concept of DRM is just idiotic, its enough if one guy breaks the DRM and releases it. Why should I even bother booting a prop…

What are they thinking? The majority of the W3C membership want this work done, and the W3C is ultimately bound by its membership. Not working on this isn't an option — take the W3C out of the picture and it'll still be done, quite probably behind closed doors, which is even worse for the web; MS, Apple, and Google are all likely going to ship this whether the W3C specifies this or not; for better or for worse, it is…

> What are they thinking? The majority of the W3C membership want this work done, and the W3C is ultimately bound by its membership.

When they accept organizations like MPAA on their board, no surprise this is the sort of decisions we get, and the sort of decisions we can expect for the web standards from now on.

W3C has been corrupted, and it's only going to get worse for the web if people keep listening to them.

Post reply on HN