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Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

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Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#61

Yes, that developer earning a relatively modest, yet maybe comparatively high, six figure salary is the root of all that is wrong in the world. Also I assume the author is implying their gentrification of Oakland is cool and acceptable but Google employees gentrification is so not. This vitriol really needs some perspective, although I'm pretty convinced this has to be a troll.

In 2011, a $100,000 salary gave you a higher individual income than 93.4% of all working-age Americans. It seems strange to describe an individual income in the top 6% as "relatively modest." Cite: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/perinc/new01...

It's all relative - the Bay Area is enormously expensive to live in compared to most other places in the USA. The apples-to-apples comparison would have to incorporate cost of living.

Which isn't saying that techies aren't paid very well, even in relation to their cost of living, but rather that absolute salary numbers mean little by themselves. A $60K salary in Manhattan for example is a tough life, whereas a $60K salary elsewhere can be very comfortable.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#63

Already seeing the responses about how their worldview is simplistic, how the protestors are acting out against people who are there to help them... but does anyone want to comment on the actual complaint that the influx of tech money is increasing the cost of living for those not working in the industry? It seems equally simplistic to just dismiss their complaints when they seem to have a very valid problem. This is…

Umm... I spent last summer in the Bay Area, does that count?

I mean, here's the thing: housing prices in the not-shitty and already-gentrified parts of the Bay Area are batshit insane. As in, $1100/month for a rented room in a shared house, insane. And for this money you got your own private bathroom, use of the kitchen and backyard, and weekly maid service, because holy crap gentrification. Yet that was actually the cheap deal compared to paying $1200/month to rent a bunk bed in a "hacker house" further away from work via AirBNB.

The only possible good move I see is for the Bay Area to approve massive amounts of housing construction and increased density, but political will is 100% stacked against that move because local governments are almost always dominated by well-off local landowners (who've usually resided in the same single town for decades) rather than by the large population of salariat-class transplants who rent.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, that is exactly the same claim the counter arguments are making: "we're entitled to move in wherever we want" I know I'd be pissed if my community - not the place I happen to live, but the actively built relationships I have with people in my neighborhood (years of freindship, acquaintance, understanding and so on) - were disrupted because a bunch of new people showed up and forced that community to be scattered…

You can protect your community. If you have something valuable, people are going to want to purchase it. Decline their offer. If you don't actually own the thing, but the person that does is a member of your community, persuade them not to sell. What you don't do is break the valuable thing hoping the would-be buyers go away, or blame them for wanting the thing you value.

This is a beautifully off point solution! Should my community start getting disrupted by higher rent, (half my neighborhood is long-term tenants, there is not rent control here, or anything like that), I will surely tell the people who don't own the apartments they rent to not sell!

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nothing else, they are implying that they are entitled to living there indefinitely.

Um, that is exactly the same claim the counter arguments are making: "we're entitled to move in wherever we want" I know I'd be pissed if my community - not the place I happen to live, but the actively built relationships I have with people in my neighborhood (years of freindship, acquaintance, understanding and so on) - were disrupted because a bunch of new people showed up and forced that community to be scattered…

If that's such an important value to you, why do you live somewhere with such a large proportion of renters who do not own their homes? If you really want to build long-term stable relationships with neighbors, wouldn't the best way to prevent people leaving due to rent changes be to live somewhere where you own your home, and so do most of your neighbors?

I feel like I'm missing something significant here. Renting an apartment is a conscious choice to me, a trade-off between a temporarily-convenient location and long-term stability, or at least that's how I've always approached it in my personal life. It's baffling to me that people will sign a rental agreement for a limited term, and then be so upset at the conditions of that agreement not being guaranteed beyond that term. Perhaps I'm confused about the nature of the complaints? Do you object to rental housing entirely?

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry? I'm not sure what you mean.

Your post reads like "ignore the protests and keep donating. The worst off people who need lots of help need you around, they make the points of the protesters irrelevant." My point is that the people protesting, are protesting because their community is being disrupted - apparently an irrelevant concern because there are people who are even worse of. That is a fallacy of course - just because someone has it worse th…

I think I understand what you're saying, but it's not what I'm trying to say, so let me clarify. I'm not from Oakland, I don't live in Oakland, and I'm not trying to say anything about whether Googlers should be living in Oakland. What I am saying is that whether Googlers live in Oakland or not, I hope they continue to donate to causes in Oakland. I hope they continue to give career advice and mentorship to kids in Oakland who dream of working at Google someday. I hope they continue to try to fix problems that the citizens of Oakland face, and those faced by other communities like Oakland where people are struggling to get by.

I hope that clears up what I'm saying. What I fear is that, as a result of these protests, the Googlers (and non-googlers in tech for that matter) who have been actively helping fight poverty in communities like these no longer continue to be as active in helping those communities. That would be terrible.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can protect your community. If you have something valuable, people are going to want to purchase it. Decline their offer. If you don't actually own the thing, but the person that does is a member of your community, persuade them not to sell. What you don't do is break the valuable thing hoping the would-be buyers go away, or blame them for wanting the thing you value.

This is a beautifully off point solution! Should my community start getting disrupted by higher rent, (half my neighborhood is long-term tenants, there is not rent control here, or anything like that), I will surely tell the people who don't own the apartments they rent to not sell!

Who owns the apartments? Talk to them. If they're not members of your community, work with your city council to pass ordinances making that arrangement more difficult.

Why would the rent be higher if the people that own the apartments didn't raise it? They have a choice in this; they can live the way they did two years ago.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, that is exactly the same claim the counter arguments are making: "we're entitled to move in wherever we want" I know I'd be pissed if my community - not the place I happen to live, but the actively built relationships I have with people in my neighborhood (years of freindship, acquaintance, understanding and so on) - were disrupted because a bunch of new people showed up and forced that community to be scattered…

If that's such an important value to you, why do you live somewhere with such a large proportion of renters who do not own their homes? If you really want to build long-term stable relationships with neighbors, wouldn't the best way to prevent people leaving due to rent changes be to live somewhere where you own your home, and so do most of your neighbors? I feel like I'm missing something significant here. Renting a…

For a lot of people (you aren't one of them, by your statements, that doesn't mean you represent the majority, or even that there isn't a significant minority!) renting makes as much sense, or more, as owning. Further, in my neighborhood, the prices have been relatively stable (roughly tracking inflation) for a long time. It isn't trendy place. Whatever. Whatever the case is - there are a lot of long-term renters. People come and go, sure, but it is a slow replacement, and there are many people who've been here as long or longer than me (6+ years for me at this location which I own, 9 in the neighborhood). I like it here. I like the people here. There's a nice community and it's partly due to the stability. Whether or not it was a the best long-term plan to make friends with these folks, to build those ties, it's what happened, and it works pretty well.

So now you're saying that should that get disrupted by things outside of my control, and the control of my neighbors, it's our fault? Isn't that kind of ridiculous?

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#69
Thesis: If the bay area had a viable transit structure, the current housing crisis would be less problematic.

People either need to work near their jobs or be able to commute to them. Housing density is low in most places, so "working-class" people get pushed out of "nice" areas, so they need to commute. Commuting is bad because transit is bad: there isn't an interconnected, pervasive mesh of transit with capillaries reaching into neighborhoods and arteries connecting cities. We've got Bart and Caltrain, but they're each for the most part single corridors, and the local transit doesn't link up well with it. So, taking public transit costs lots of time and money. The alternative that people have is to drive, but there are too many cars on the road, so driving takes lots of time and money. The result is that people feel like they don't have anywhere to go.

I'm not sympathetic to the argument "I've lived here for NN years so I should be allowed to stay living here as long as I want, realities of economics aside".

I wonder if it would help if there were a governing body between county and state that comprised "the bay area". Individual cities and counties have to strike deals between each other to link transit, with all the usual crappiness that politics entails. If a few counties (or cities that aren't in the same county) have a disagreement, do they have any place to air their arguments aside from the state level? People in LA don't care about the bay area's transit problems. People outside the major metro areas (central valley, far-northern california) don't care about the bay area's transit problems.

Part of the problem is that low density begets low density: all those cars need a place to be parked all day while their drivers work, so we have ~40-50% of the space in cities devoted to roads and parking. Further, low density makes mass transit economically infeasible.

I don't have a solution to offer. I can't see a way from where we are to the bay area I dream of, given the state of the economy and the politics involved.

Conclusion: we should collapse the bay area into a point mass. Then everybody gets to live in the nicest digs in town!

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nothing else, they are implying that they are entitled to living there indefinitely.

Um, that is exactly the same claim the counter arguments are making: "we're entitled to move in wherever we want" I know I'd be pissed if my community - not the place I happen to live, but the actively built relationships I have with people in my neighborhood (years of freindship, acquaintance, understanding and so on) - were disrupted because a bunch of new people showed up and forced that community to be scattered…

I think the reason I don't have as much sympathy as perhaps I might is because I grew up in a place where the community was over 200 years old, and mostly made up of the same families that entire time. Unfortunately, the mill closed, and most people lost their jobs. Lots of people left because they couldn't afford to live here anymore (it's not expensive, but there aren't many jobs.)

So, the death of a community over two centuries old was what I grew up in.

Change happens; you can shape it as it comes and maybe make it palatable, but you can't entirely stop it.

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