Quick attempt to answer these based on my understanding of the GPL, and just a quick cursory skim of version 3. I am not a lawyer. [Edit: It seems like my answers to the first few are a bit contentious and should really be "it depends"; see comments below.] 1. Yes, by using foo.py as a library, your bar.py must also be GPL'd. This would be different were foo.py under the Lesser GPL. 2. Not shipping foo.py does not ch…
> 2. Not shipping foo.py does not change the answer to #1; you still depend on it, thus your work still counts as a derivative. I don't know whether your answers are correct but you should not use the term "derivative" or "derivative work". It's a rather clear legal term. The GPL3 does not use that term, anymore. In fact, if we would be arguing about a derivative work in the copyright sense, your answer to 2 and 3 (a…
Twenty questions about the GPL
61–70 of 83 posts
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another option is to operate in reasonably good faith, try to observe the "spirit" of the GPL, and hope that you will not be the target of legal action. I don't really like that solution either (it kind of defeats the purpose of having a legally binding license), but it's the current solution silently adopted by a lot of people interoperating with GPLed code using any of the techniques described in your article. In a…
"...and hope that you will not be the target of legal action." I think that's a hope that I, jacob and many others are not willing to sign up to.
The problem is not just the case where a company does get hit with a lawsuit if it should violate the GPL as it might nebulously apply to myriad situations.
It is the very possibility of such an event that will scare away those who might otherwise fund your company or who might otherwise acquire it.
I know. I deal with funding rounds and M&A very frequently in real-world situations. Believe me, if the GPL pops up in due diligence, general panic ensues unless it involves only some incidental use that can be worked around or it involves a very clear-cut case of how the license applies.
As an entrepreneur, you can lose and lose badly in such situations even where no lawsuit is ever filed.
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
The FSF provides an opinion on some of these questions, unfortunately their opinion, that any import or dynamic linking triggers the GPL, a) has never been tested in court, ever (unlike for static linking), and b) is often not matched by the users of the GPL, such as the famed disagreement between RMS and Linus Torvalds with regard to whether Linux in it's current form complies with the GPL.
c) Does not matter. The FSF does not get to write copyright law and decide what is or is not a derivative work.
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#64This would be a much more interesting article if the author had at least tried to get answers to his questions (perhaps from the GNU foundation or the Software Freedom Law Center, etc) and included that with his questions. That would have been an interesting article, and possibly useful to hackers and software entrepreneurs. As it is, I'm surprised and disappointed that an article with so little substance has made it…
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#65Greg Vetter, a former law professor of mine at the University of Houston, has written about the pitfalls of 'infectious' open source licenses such as the GPL. I highly recommend taking a look at his paper on the topic: http://ssrn.com/abstract=585922 Ambiguities in copyright precedent about what actually constitutes a derivative work will continue to vex the GPL for some time. The unfortunate truth is that there are…
>Ambiguities in copyright precedent Fortunately there are no ambiguities anywhere else in the law, which is why all civil lawsuits are decided in 10mins by a secretary and an intern
Unlike a simple civil contract dispute, for example, where the ambiguity usually lies in the terms of the agreement between the parties, what I'm referring to is the ambiguity inherent in the federal case law precedent surrounding derivative works -- let me explain.
Derivative works, as defined by the Copyright Act of 1976, are those "based upon one or more preexisting works" that have been recast, transformed, and/or adapted from their original form. [1] Specifically, there is differing authority as to the requisite level of originality required for a derivative work. For example, in Gracen v. Bradford Exchange, Judge Posner held that a "derivative work must be substantially different from the underlying work to be copyrightable." [2] Compare this approach with that of the second circuit in Alfred Bell & Co. v. Catalda Fine Arts, Inc., which rejected any novelty requirement, holding that a "distinguishable variation" of the original work would suffice to trigger copyright for a derivative work based on public domain sources. [3]
The required amount of originality has produced a circuit level split in cases involving the infringement of the exclusive right to prepare derivative works. Particularly, pictures taken from lawfully purchased books and mounted to a tile were considered, by the ninth circuit, a "recast or transform[ation of] the individual images" sufficient to infringe the original artist’s section 106(2) right. [4] The seventh circuit, in a strongly worded opinion by Judge Easterbrook, rejected this approach finding that the pictures were merely "bonded to a slab of ceramic ... [and] not changed in the process." [5] Easterbrook opined that the seventh circuit’s inclusive view of derivative works would create an expansive moral rights regime not explicitly authorized in the 1976 Act. [6]
In other words, until the Supreme Court rules definitively and resolves the circuit split, the threshold of originality necessary for a derivative work depends on the precedent your jurisdiction follows. Hence why it's more ambiguous than is typical of other topics in federal law.
[1] 17 U.S.C. § 101.
[2] Gracen v. Bradford Exchange, 698 F.2d 300, 305 (7th Cir. 1983).
[3] Alfred Bell & Co. v. Catalda Fine Arts, Inc., 191 F.2d 99, 102 (2d Cir. 1951) ("It is clear, then, that nothing in the Constitution commands that copyrighted matter be strikingly unique or novel. Accordingly, we were not ignoring the Constitution when we stated that a 'copy of something in the public domain' will support a copyright if it is a 'distinguishable variation' ").
[4] Mirage Editions v. Albuquerque A.R.T., 856 F.2d 1341, 1344 (9th Cir. 1988).
[5] Lee v. A.R.T. Co., 125 F.3d 580, 582 (7th Cir. 1997).
[6] See id. at 582. Easterbrook observed: "If Lee (and the ninth circuit) are right about what counts as a derivative work, then the United States has established through the back door an extraordinarily broad version of authors’ moral rights, under which artists may block any modification of their works of which they disapprove. No European version of droit moral goes this far."
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#66Jacob brings up a point I haven't seen clearly expressed before -- the GPL's design directly leads to questions like these (now more than ever with Python/Ruby and Javascript), but the FSF not only does not provide clear or useful answers, there is no mechanism for arriving at decent answers . The problem with the GPL is not really the evangelical copyleft (as annoying as those people can be), the problem is that it'…
Jacob: the question you were missing:
"What happens if a Judge finds the GPL unenforceable?"
That's the big elephant in the room.
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#67[deleted]
Good point, the GPLv2 was very clear. The GPLv3 left me scratching my head about why, exactly, libraries, interfaces, object code, etc., were all enumerated separately, mangling the section about derivation into legalese that is very difficult to decipher.
Its funny ,one of the reasons we mostly release using the permissive licenses (apache 2 and sometimes bsd and mit) is that they are both usable by both commerical and gpl'd software but also because the added administrative overhead (policing use, etc) that is introduced by releasing software under the GPL isn't necessarily worth the patches you might force out of those that might use your code.
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
HN is largely anti-GPL. You are being dowmodded for that reason.
No, he's being downmodded for suggesting that the author should have to contact one particular organization to get answers to simple questions about something as widely used and discussed as the GPL.
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you mean that if you call any function which is part of a GPL'd library then consequentially your work is a derivative. Going by that logic can anything running on Linux be a non-GPL'd commercial product ?! I am really confused right now !
Linux made an exception to the GPL so that Linux programs don't have to be GPLed.
NOTE! This copyright does not cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does not fall under the heading of "derived work".
http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-2.6.3...
Re: Twenty questions about the GPL
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Linux made an exception to the GPL so that Linux programs don't have to be GPLed.
I'm not sure why this was voted down; here's the relevant text: NOTE! This copyright does not cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does not fall under the heading of "derived work". http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-2.6.3...
The note in COPYING is just to allay FUD, it's not actually necessary and certainly isn't a GPL exception.
For starters, nearly all programs (by volume) making syscalls don't use any specific to Linux -- there's no way it's derivative if it runs fine on another kernel. Furthermore, responding to syscalls is what Linux is FOR in 'normal use' -- not even the FSF is jackass enough to claim that bash scripts are derivative works, even if they are riddled with bash-isms.