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Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

cdixon.org

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Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#61
post #15

> Let’s say you sell electronics online. Profit margins in those businesses are usually under 5%, which means the 2.5% payment fees consume half the margin. That’s money that could be reinvested in the business, passed back to consumers, or taxed by the government. Of all of those choices, handing 2.5% to banks to move bits around the Internet is the worst possible choice. In other words, better wealth distribution?…

Payment fees typically go to Visa or MasterCard, I thought. And considering the financials of those companies, operating the existing payment networks must be costly- both companies are growing & profitable, but not nearly as much as you might expect if the payment networks were zero-cost to operate.

The issuing bank and (often the) consumer also collect some of the payment fee.

I guess credit unions that offer Visa or Mastercard on their checking cards are also funding some of their operations this way (indirectly benefiting their customers).

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#62

I too am fascinated by Bitcoin and still in learning mode. I think there's one important distinction to add here though. Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon. That's amazingly empowering and 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running…

"Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon."

Anyone can take payments using Bitcoin in less time than it takes to sign up for and implement the Stripe API (I would know; I've done both), and you don't have to have a bank account in an approved jurisdiction in order to do so.

They can either do this by using the technology directly or using an intermediary such as Coinbase.

"Bitcoin focuses in on those areas where it has a strategic advantage over cards and ignores those where it doesn't."

Thankfully Bitcoin doesn't care what it's used for, and there will probably be people trying to implement a Bitcoin solution for all these areas; the ones that find a niche will survive, and the ones that don't will fail. Either way, we'll (in theory) end up with the services that Bitcoin is suited for, and the ones that it isn't suited for will continue to use more traditional methods.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#63

We don't know what the cost of transactions in Bitcoin will be yet. Bitcoin includes two methods to pay miners for the infrastructure costs of running the network: mining rewards and transaction fees. The idea is to bootstrap the network off of mining rewards, and then switch to relying on transaction fees in the future, as Bitcoin reaches its limit of 21 million coins. The problem is that mining rewards are currentl…

You're assuming that mining revenue must never decrease, but there's no reason for that to be true. A more likely scenario is that as block rewards go away, instead of transaction fees going up, overall mining revenue goes down. Some miners will exit, but as long as there's money to be made there will still be miners. Bitcoin users and miners will adjust fees until they reach a compromise that's mutually acceptable.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#64

I don't think Bitcoin will ever be a viable currency, at least not on the scale of national currencies. Despite all the flaws fiat currency has, it is actually backed by something - the power of the country's government to tax. Thus, any buyer of sovereign debt has a calculable probability of return. Despite America's printing of dollars, inflation has actually been mild so far. Bitcoin has nothing backing it but an…

I don't understand the argument that "the power of the country's government to tax" is a point in favor of a currency. I would say that it is pretty clear that the opposite is true for almost every significant tax; that a country collecting taxes in a currency would be a disadvantage of a currency. The fact that countries need to pass laws allowing taxation of non-local currencies seems to support that.

For a limited class of taxes, namely, taxes directly denominated in a currency (like property taxes), the taxability of a currency adds to the demand for that currency. But for the most part, since non-local currency transactions and barter transactions are taxed at the effective exchange rate / fair value, the fact that taxes are collected in dollars would seem to neither hurt nor help the currency.

That said, in summary, the "artificial supply limitation" applies to both Bitcoin and dollars, with dollars relying purely on trust that America will not increase the money supply unnecessarily. That inflation has actually been mild is a "bug" in the system -- the Fed is deliberately trying to spur inflation, and has not been having success, for reasons that nobody (including themselves) completely understands. The calculable probability of return that you refer to has been pretty reliable (just like MBS's in 2006, couldn't resist), so that is true, but I don't see that being related to the taxability of the currency so much as to the lack of apparent inflation compared to the nominal returns on sovereign debt.

The monetary base argument also seems specious; M0, the "monetary base", is not generally considered (except by non-mainstream economists) to be all that significant compared to the higher-order money supply factors caused by dollar-denominated assets of varying liquidity. Once (or if) Bitcoin develops a credit market, then the medium-term effective money supply will grow and shrink as the market demands.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#65

I too am fascinated by Bitcoin and still in learning mode. I think there's one important distinction to add here though. Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon. That's amazingly empowering and 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running…

Setting up for bitcoin transactions is even easier and faster. I often see bitcoin addresses listed on github accounts, asking for a small tip. Also: http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcointip

I remember some years ago when people were getting excited about microtransactions, but nobody found a good way to make them work. It seems like Bitcoin might be a viable way of bringing the idea back.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#66
post #8

For all the people out there who are thinking about bitcoin as a payment technology: If you assume that customers get paid in dollars and that vendors will have to use dollars to pay their taxes, pay their employees and buy the raw materials for their products (reasonable assumptions, I think), then a payment consists of one conversion from dollars to bitcoins by the purchaser, and one conversion from bitcoins to dol…

Good point.

I'm seeing a lot of parallels between dotcom era payment systems like PayPal and even Flooz. Paypal's original concept was paying friends for things like splitting lunch.

The hook that's different here is that once you deposit legal tender and covert to bitcoin, you're basically trading something that is commodity-like. Basically, it's no different than bartering shares of gold.

My question is, when the regulatory system catches up, is bitcoin better than a commodity?

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#67

I too am fascinated by Bitcoin and still in learning mode. I think there's one important distinction to add here though. Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon. That's amazingly empowering and 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running…

> Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon.

Last I checked, it takes at least a month to apply for and receive a credit card, so this is obviously wrong. Guess what, I could set you up with a bitcoin account and some bitcoins in less than a minute.

> 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running those rails to collect (fraud, global movement etc)

Yeah, as long as something else doesn't come along that's even better at fraud prevention and global movement and only charges 0.01% (like bitcoin, for instance)

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#68
post #8

For all the people out there who are thinking about bitcoin as a payment technology: If you assume that customers get paid in dollars and that vendors will have to use dollars to pay their taxes, pay their employees and buy the raw materials for their products (reasonable assumptions, I think), then a payment consists of one conversion from dollars to bitcoins by the purchaser, and one conversion from bitcoins to dol…

We began accepting bitcoin last month and aren't converting all of our bitcoin to dollars. We have several employees who accept their pay in bitcoin.

Taking things a bit further, we are optimistic about bitcoin as a payment form with our suppliers as the volatility stabilises. As an example, one of our suppliers is Belgium based and we'd be able to save on the currency exchange with those payments. We've discussed it and they didn't turn their nose up to the idea.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#69
post #57

How much of the 2.5% credit card fees goes towards combating fraud and enabling reversibility of transactions? I assume it's a significant fraction because you get a better rate if you use services like "verified by visa", no? Is there any reason to believe that fraud rates will be lower with bitcoin? And as far the programmable money idea goes, I'd like to see more compelling applications than M of N transactions or…

> Is there any reason to believe that fraud rates will be lower with bitcoin?

Yes, the risk of fraudulent creation of bitcoins or of double spending of a well-confirmed bitcoin are essentially zero (assuming no major flaw in the current science of cryptography.)

Also, the odds of stolen identities (name/address/birthdate/ssn) would be zero, since those are not needed for sending bitcoins.

So yes, fraud will be a lot lower with bitcoin.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chris - this argument seems compelling, at least on the surface. It brought up two questions in my mind: 1) You say "You'll converts to and from USD occasionally but not on every transaction" . Sure you wouldn't need to exchange on every transaction, but when you do the conversion, the 1% applies to $ amount not the number of transactions. So if I convert $200 into BTC, I pay the 1% (+ exchange spread) on $200. It do…

I'm not aware of any exchange charging 1% for a one-way exchange. That would be very high. Most tend to be around 0.5-0.6%, with some as low as 0.2% Actually, many of the Chinese exchanges are currently 0% to trade, though they charge to bring money in or out of their systems. It's also worth noting that many of the exchanges have fees that get lower if you trade larger amounts in a given time frame. If you're a high…

Coinbase is probably the most popular US exchange (no source on this, sorry... I just use them) and they charge $0.15+1%.

I think I have read that if you are a merchant and establish a merchant account that you can get the first 1 Million Dollars (USD) free of fees. I am not sure what bar you must pass to earn merchant status, but I do have a link[1] to back this up. Presumably it's not more complicated than "accept payments for services" -- you could probably fudge it if you were simply in the business of cashing out bitcoins up to $1M. I haven't looked into it further because I'm not a merchant and I have been more interested in buying than selling at Coinbase.

Are the Chinese exchanges still bringing money in and out? I thought I read this was forbidden, and that was the reason for the great dump of $1000USD prices a few weeks back.

[1]: http://blog.coinbase.com/post/59417545262/your-first-1-000-0...

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