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Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

thomasbell.co.uk

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Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#61

Post by Ygg2 »

tptacek wrote: post #58
selmnoo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel the need to diminish a counter viewpoint (however misguided it may be) in such a confrontational way? By reducing it to a buzzwordy opponent identity, you've pretty much nullified any chance of constructive discussion there was. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe the MensRights folks are the way they are because they felt discriminated against at some point in their life? And now they've found…

I did think about it. I thought about it briefly. Then I decided that the idea that men are somehow oppressed by feminism (or, really, by any other kind of force directed solely at men) is fucking ridiculous and unworthy of point-by-point debate. You show me the startup that carefully considers whether or not to hire 20-something men for fear that they might have children and need to take time off or work less than 6…

Why is it impossible? Nothing about women oppressing men, doesn't sound as ludicrous than vice-versa? Human capacity for evil is evenly distributed between genders.

Don't forget that there was a thing like matriarchy. I'm pretty sure that oppression on some level occurred even then, but since there was little written evidence, its just hard to prove.

As for hiring someone that might have children, and need to take time off, that part should be handled by the state. If someone leaves, the state pays employer and/or women caring for her 1year child. You are effectively down a one person but they are not to blame for things running their course.

That thing shouldn't come into equation at any point.

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#62

Post by tptacek »

Ygg2 wrote: post #61
tptacek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did think about it. I thought about it briefly. Then I decided that the idea that men are somehow oppressed by feminism (or, really, by any other kind of force directed solely at men) is fucking ridiculous and unworthy of point-by-point debate. You show me the startup that carefully considers whether or not to hire 20-something men for fear that they might have children and need to take time off or work less than 6…

Why is it impossible? Nothing about women oppressing men, doesn't sound as ludicrous than vice-versa? Human capacity for evil is evenly distributed between genders. Don't forget that there was a thing like matriarchy. I'm pretty sure that oppression on some level occurred even then, but since there was little written evidence, its just hard to prove. As for hiring someone that might have children, and need to take ti…

Not helping.

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#63

Post by Ygg2 »

tptacek wrote: post #62
Ygg2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it impossible? Nothing about women oppressing men, doesn't sound as ludicrous than vice-versa? Human capacity for evil is evenly distributed between genders. Don't forget that there was a thing like matriarchy. I'm pretty sure that oppression on some level occurred even then, but since there was little written evidence, its just hard to prove. As for hiring someone that might have children, and need to take ti…

Not helping.

Not the point. Your position is flawed.

It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position.

I think women in a company do have a rather special quality, to smooth some of the misunderstandings and lessen certain conflicts. That plus a unique woman perspective is invaluable when it comes to generating ideas.

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#64

Post by dragonwriter »

Ygg2 wrote: post #63
tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not helping.

Not the point. Your position is flawed. It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position. I think women in a company do have a rather special quality, to smooth some of the misunderstandings and lessen certain conflicts. That plus a unique wo…

> It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position.

That's a bad analogy for you to use, since people who defend that it should be socially unacceptable use the claim that it is "unnatural" to support their position. It therefore is quite appropriate for people who disagree with that position to (among other arguments) point out evidence that contradicts the "unnatural" claim.

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#65

Post by Ygg2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #64
Ygg2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the point. Your position is flawed. It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position. I think women in a company do have a rather special quality, to smooth some of the misunderstandings and lessen certain conflicts. That plus a unique wo…

> It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position. That's a bad analogy for you to use, since people who defend that it should be socially unacceptable use the claim that it is "unnatural" to support their position. It therefore is quite app…

Saying:

"Don't use A to prove B"

Doesn't say:

"Don't use A to disprove B"

I do not understand your dilemma. I never said, don't use penguins as examples to counter people calling homosexuality unnatural. I said don't use penguins as examples to prove it "natural".

My response was to noticed trend that few homosexuals and their supporters use statements like the above to justify their rights and even worse, their right to exist. I was truly shocked! I do understand what it is to live in a conservative environment, and get hammered in that certain group X is bad, and that it shouldn't exist, but at no point should you justify your existence (wtf?! you have every right to exist if you don't invade other people's liberties) with bad examples that are easily countered. It's like watching someone self straw-man themselves.

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#66

Post by [deleted] »

Ygg2 wrote: post #65
dragonwriter wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like homosexual supporter saying that because penguins can be gay that homosexuality is natural. It being socially acceptable has no connection to naturallity, and attempting to pretend so is a disservice to your position. That's a bad analogy for you to use, since people who defend that it should be socially unacceptable use the claim that it is "unnatural" to support their position. It therefore is quite app…

Saying: "Don't use A to prove B" Doesn't say: "Don't use A to disprove B" I do not understand your dilemma. I never said, don't use penguins as examples to counter people calling homosexuality unnatural. I said don't use penguins as examples to prove it "natural". My response was to noticed trend that few homosexuals and their supporters use statements like the above to justify their rights and even worse, their righ…

[deleted]

Re: Be a Man and Stand Up for Gender Equality

#68

Post by voidr »

Tzunamitom wrote: post #45
rfnslyr wrote: post #2

What if I started a company, and all good candidates were male, and the women weren't on par? What if no women applied at all? I don't get this whole gender thing. If statistically less women apply to a STEM degree, or tech related job, how is it the fault of "white males"? White male guilt at it's finest if you ask me. If you actively see discrimination, do something about it. I actually work with a team that is 90%…

> Why try to force equality? Am I missing something? OP here. Good question. A long time ago I thought in a very similar way because I was strongly opposed to discrimination in all forms and because I think that there is often a backlash effect against affirmative action. Between then and writing the linked article, what changed? Well 2 things: 1. Increasingly studies have shown that diversity or equality in itself c…

So we should hire people because they are women and/or not white and not because they are good at what they do?
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