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Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

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Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#61

Post by steveklabnik »

gaius wrote: post #58
steveklabnik wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> colored people Just for your own sake, in case you're not a native speaker: you shouldn't ever, ever say this. The words you use send social signals to others, and 'colored people' sounds really, really, really racist. This is distinct from 'person of color,' which is not. Use it instead. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

Coloured is a normal saying in South Africa and isn't an absurd politically correct euphemism for black. Before accusing others of racism, check your cultural imperialism.

I specifically did not accuse them of racism, I said that it sends a certain signal, which is obviously scoped to cultures. HN is largely about California culture, so many readers will have a US-centric reading. Understanding what effect the words you use has on your audience is important.

You'll also note that the South Africa bit is specifically mentioned in the "people of color" link.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#62

Post by gaius »

knowtheory wrote: post #24
dasil003 wrote: post #6

I agree there are systemic issues of racism keeping blacks and latinos away from open source, but those issues have nothing to do with open-source per se. The free time issue is a big one. Access to computers at home in early childhood is probably even bigger. Consider Bill Gates getting computer access as a 13 year old in 1968, this was an incredible leg up, something which gradually broadened but when I was a kid i…

I think they will find it to be as close a meritocracy and "color-blind" environment as they will find in America today In this thread: Lies open source developers tell themselves. It's a sad joke Rubyconf attendees yearly confuse @bryanl and @daksis with each other, but it's happened at every Rubyconf i've been too (which is granted 3 but it's there). Open Source is a community, and communities are about who you kno…

Who and who, and how is it illustrative? For the non-rubyists.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#63

Post by jbdurruti »

steveklabnik wrote: post #61
gaius wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coloured is a normal saying in South Africa and isn't an absurd politically correct euphemism for black. Before accusing others of racism, check your cultural imperialism.

I specifically did not accuse them of racism, I said that it sends a certain signal, which is obviously scoped to cultures. HN is largely about California culture, so many readers will have a US-centric reading. Understanding what effect the words you use has on your audience is important. You'll also note that the South Africa bit is specifically mentioned in the "people of color" link.

> I specifically did not accuse them of racism

You're sure you didn't do exactly that to an audience of about 12K followers on Twitter? https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/409697629321195520

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#64

Post by steveklabnik »

jbdurruti wrote: post #63
steveklabnik wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically did not accuse them of racism, I said that it sends a certain signal, which is obviously scoped to cultures. HN is largely about California culture, so many readers will have a US-centric reading. Understanding what effect the words you use has on your audience is important. You'll also note that the South Africa bit is specifically mentioned in the "people of color" link.

> I specifically did not accuse them of racism You're sure you didn't do exactly that to an audience of about 12K followers on Twitter? https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/409697629321195520

I do not think they are racist. I think they said something that sounds like they're racist.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#65

Post by ceras »

theorique wrote: post #45
ceras wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the relative abundance of Asian (Indo/Pakistani and/or Oriental) members in IT and FOSS software suggest that there's not an obvious or passive "White Power" conspiracy going on there. This is a common argument but I think it's kind of irrelevant. It's not untrue, but it doesn't suggest that there is no bias against other groups (women, blacks, hispanics, etc.). I think it's fair to say Americans by and large a…

So you're saying there is a passive or subtle bias against blacks or Hispanics in the OSS world in a way that is not also applied to Asian members of that community?

I don't know anything about the OSS world. I'm just pointing out why that argument doesn't mean anything to me. Someone claiming no negativity toward Asians as a group tells me little about how they think of other races, especially since I expect much less negativity toward Asians than other ethnicities in the US in general anyway.

I certainly think it's possible that blacks and Asians face distinct challenges and biases in this community; one would have to be very naive or ignorant of minority treatment in the US to not consider that a possibility.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#66

Post by theorique »

gaius wrote: post #62
knowtheory wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they will find it to be as close a meritocracy and "color-blind" environment as they will find in America today In this thread: Lies open source developers tell themselves. It's a sad joke Rubyconf attendees yearly confuse @bryanl and @daksis with each other, but it's happened at every Rubyconf i've been too (which is granted 3 but it's there). Open Source is a community, and communities are about who you kno…

Who and who, and how is it illustrative? For the non-rubyists.

Two prominent Rubyists who happen to be simultaneously black.

https://twitter.com/bryanl

https://twitter.com/daksis

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#67

Post by gaius »

mhurron wrote: post #59
steveklabnik wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> colored people Just for your own sake, in case you're not a native speaker: you shouldn't ever, ever say this. The words you use send social signals to others, and 'colored people' sounds really, really, really racist. This is distinct from 'person of color,' which is not. Use it instead. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

They're both ways of segregating the world in to people who are white and people who aren't. Saying one is appropriate and one isn't is just as stupid as saying blacks saying nigger is ok but it's horrible if anyone else says it.

Caucasian and non-Caucasian. Easy.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#68

Post by smoyer »

dasil003 wrote: post #6

I agree there are systemic issues of racism keeping blacks and latinos away from open source, but those issues have nothing to do with open-source per se. The free time issue is a big one. Access to computers at home in early childhood is probably even bigger. Consider Bill Gates getting computer access as a 13 year old in 1968, this was an incredible leg up, something which gradually broadened but when I was a kid i…

" The free time issue is a big one."

I have four kids, a career in software (after almost 20 years that included hardware design), a couple of outside activities but the reality is that software is (and has been) my hobby. And I pursue my hobby instead of watching television, I read software books more frequently than fiction.

You could probably say my life isn't very balanced, but my kids and wife haven't complained that I don't make time for them. It's a matter of sleeping less and not filling my time with other hobbies. I'd hate to call this racism (not that racism doesn't exist) when it might just be cultural differences?

I realize that there are definite economic barriers to even having time for a hobby, and that put having a suitable computer out-of-reach, so I think I'd rather see this particular issue framed as one of SES. Racism, as well as a variety of other factors can definitely affect SES ... and there's often continuity within a family.

So what can we do? Since it's the season of giving, I'll start with an offer. If you believe you're being kept out of the software field, you're truly passionate about software as a career (not just because the pay tends to be good) and if you're in the Central Pennsylvania area, please contact me via the e-mail in my profile. I'll do what I can to get you connected into a community and set up with a used computer that should get you started.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#69

Post by smoyer »

theorique wrote: post #66
gaius wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who and who, and how is it illustrative? For the non-rubyists.

Two prominent Rubyists who happen to be simultaneously black. https://twitter.com/bryanl https://twitter.com/daksis

I hope they continue being simultaneous for a long time then ... Not being in the Ruby community, I've never seen either of them but I'd love to tell them "live long and prosper".

One caveat though ... I'm horrible with names and faces. This includes plenty of white people who happen to look alike. Fortunately I'm to the point where I can pick my wife and kids out of a crowd. Is this a common affliction among people who pursue software?

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#70

Post by theorique »

smoyer wrote: post #69
theorique wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two prominent Rubyists who happen to be simultaneously black. https://twitter.com/bryanl https://twitter.com/daksis

I hope they continue being simultaneous for a long time then ... Not being in the Ruby community, I've never seen either of them but I'd love to tell them "live long and prosper". One caveat though ... I'm horrible with names and faces. This includes plenty of white people who happen to look alike. Fortunately I'm to the point where I can pick my wife and kids out of a crowd. Is this a common affliction among people…

:) the "simultaneous" thing was me being cheeky.

But on a more serious note, I can see where being "the black guy" would get tiresome fast. Or being mistaken for "the other black guy". Don't know if that would cause a person to quit the OSS world, but it's probably not a highlight.

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