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Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

ecat.com

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Re: Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

#61

Post by lutusp »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #45
lutusp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There could be something going on here that we don't understand. In science, the null hypothesis rules. The null hypothesis -- the premise that something is false until evidence proves otherwise -- is why scientists have a reputation for skepticism. It also filters out claims like this one. A scientist wouldn't give Rossi the benefit of the doubt. A scientist would demand scientific evidence, not a marketing sheet…

why Rossi doesn't use 200 KW of the claimed 1 MW output power to remove the input power requirement? Because it's necessary to input the power to bootstrap the reaction. Of course, that just begs the question: why not say it's only needed for start-up? I suppose that there could be engineering concerns... Don't get me wrong, I believe this is baloney. But I don't think the argument about requiring input power is what…

>> why Rossi doesn't use 200 KW of the claimed 1 MW output power to remove the input power requirement?

> Because it's necessary to input the power to bootstrap the reaction.

Yes, but his megawatt unit consists of dozens of smaller units, each of which (if we accept the premise for the moment) requires a much smaller amount of bootstrap power. Therefore, logically, he would power one unit with a tiny bootstrap kick, that unit would use its generated power to sustain itself and bootstrap four additional units, four would bootstrap 16, all with surplus power. Logical, yes?

Anyone with the slightest familiarity with science and technology would see this is the logical arrangement, but it appears Rossi doesn't have the slightest familiarity with science and technology.

Re: Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

#62

Post by lutusp »

crusso wrote: post #47
lutusp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the required input power! The input power is required in order to generate heat to initiate the reaction, and the output power is heat. In any case, it would be child's play to use a thermoelectric converter to efficiently generate electricity from the vast claimed heat output.

I hate to defend the guy when he's set off my fraud detector alarms so much, but thermoelectric converters are what, less than 10% efficient? That wouldn't allow the reaction to sustain itself. He would need some kind of steam-driven turbine to achieve the efficiency needed to provide net power. It doesn't seem unreasonable that his base product doesn't include more than just the basics for now.

> I hate to defend the guy when he's set off my fraud detector alarms so much, but thermoelectric converters are what, less than 10% efficient?

Wait -- the input power requirement is intended to run a heater, not provide electricity. And I should never have mentioned thermoelectric converters, that only complicates the discussion with no benefit.

Because the input power is needed to run a "immersion heater" according to the linked page, and because the output power is heat, this whole account quickly unravels.

> He would need some kind of steam-driven turbine to achieve the efficiency needed to provide net power.

No problem, there are plenty of those available. But the claims in the "fact sheet" are obviously false. If he really had a working unit that developed a megawatt using dozens of smaller units working in parallel, then why doesn't he just start one small unit with a tiny power kick, then use that unit to start four additional units, four to 16, ad infinitum, like a logical design. But Rossi hasn't bothered to think this deeply. The reason? He's not really going to build it. And the reason for that is it cannot be built.

Re: Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

#63

Post by bglazer »

crusso wrote: post #47
lutusp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the required input power! The input power is required in order to generate heat to initiate the reaction, and the output power is heat. In any case, it would be child's play to use a thermoelectric converter to efficiently generate electricity from the vast claimed heat output.

I hate to defend the guy when he's set off my fraud detector alarms so much, but thermoelectric converters are what, less than 10% efficient? That wouldn't allow the reaction to sustain itself. He would need some kind of steam-driven turbine to achieve the efficiency needed to provide net power. It doesn't seem unreasonable that his base product doesn't include more than just the basics for now.

As a side note Rossi sold 27 thermoelectric converters with a claimed efficiency of 20% to the Department of Defense.

19 of them didn't function at all. The 8 that did work only produced 1 Watt of power instead of the 800 promised.

The guy is a scam artist.

Re: Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

#64

Post by BerislavLopac »

dragonwriter wrote: post #55
lutusp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power > The tech data page specifies 200kW input power Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough, rather than trying to sign people up to buy his unprotected, yet-to-be-built device. Also, wh…

> Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough As for patents on perpetual motion devices, the Patent Office is geared to reject claimed cold fusion patents that don't include a demonstration of a working device (of course, the reason for this is such claims have pro…

Shouldn't this be a requirement for all patents?

Re: Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

#65

Post by dragonwriter »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #64
dragonwriter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough As for patents on perpetual motion devices, the Patent Office is geared to reject claimed cold fusion patents that don't include a demonstration of a working device (of course, the reason for this is such claims have pro…

Shouldn't this be a requirement for all patents?

> Shouldn't this be a requirement for all patents?

It has to demonstrate utility for all patents; but utility doesn't generally require a working device (even for patents of a "device" type).

Whether it should is an interesting question, but if its clear from the information in the patent and the information generally available outside of it that a practitioner in the field could derive real utility from the described mechanism, I think there's at least a clear argument that actually having a demonstrated device is unnecessary, while with ones whose claims appear to violate physical laws or be of a class where claims have shown to be impossible to reproduce by other practitioners, the demonstration of a working device to demonstrate utility is important.

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