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Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

mikaschiller.wordpress.com

61–70 of 134 posts

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#61
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be the butterfly effect. It starts with children. Better at math -> more interested in math -> better at math -> ... by they time young adults start seeking jobs, a small initial bias has turned into a large gap. Personally, I don't think that's the whole story (according to my observations, it's also upbringing, girls socialize more than boys, who are more likely to keep to themselves, and differences in to…

First, it's probably not the case that interest and practice can have any impact on your underlying mathematical aptitude. Second, regardless, the 2:1 ratio for perfect scores on the SAT Math manifests at 16-18, so when people are already mostly developed.

[deleted]

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#62

I invited three women to be on the board of my corporation. All of them turned me down. All of the men I invited onto my board accepted.

Why? Edit: I'm asking because @dnautics gave us an anecdote that doesn't add anything useful. Knowing why would be much more interesting, although still an anecdote.

Because board meetings are, by design, a contentious environment?

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#63
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias. I see more people causing harm trying to ignore natural differences, so I must ask, what have you observed that causes you to believe that? "Don't just stand there, do something."

pretty much every genocide ever?

Nope, just the biggest one (Holocaust), the second biggest being Holodomor, an Stalin's attack to Ukranian Nationalism. Genocides in Nigeria and similar ones are ethnic ones for political power, without justification over biological differences.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#64
What truth there is in this article amounts to a (significantly outdated) survey of the state of women in society. All it presents is correlations. It's a mathematical fact that you can know nothing of causal effects between correlated results based solely on such statistics.

In other words, what this article is saying is:

1. Women are demonstrably less represented in STEM fields.

2. Women do demonstrably less well in certain metrics we associate with STEM fields.

3. This is because women are biologically less interested/able/adept at STEM.

Every bit of evidence in the article supports 1 and 2 (at least as of 20 years ago). The only support 3 gets is repeated statements that 2 is the natural, inevitable order of things.

There is no reason to believe a word of it.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#65
This is a pretty shallow article - especially irritating because it's referenced with a bunch of things that have no relevance. I love in particular:

There are a lot of stupid guys out there. And when you mix stupidity and risky behavior, you often get death. In the United States, men make up about 92% of workplace deaths

Exercise for the reader to think about why that might be the case…

And another:

A study of attrition of women in engineering and science programs found that frequently cited barriers were isolation, lack of self-confidence, and lack of interest in the subject matter (Brainard & Carlin, 1998). That’s hardly the stuff of societal discrimination.

That is exactly the stuff of societal (and social) discrimination. Not because people are saying "You're a woman, and you'll be rubbish at this," but because the extant lack of gender balance in these fields perpetuates itself; if women don't want to be scientists and engineers, it becomes harder for those women who do. There's a tipping point.

From a statistical point of view, there are ultimately psychological differences between men and women. That fact has as near as possible no relevance to this discussion - obviously so, because it's patently obvious that men are not - what, ten times better at running tech businesses? Twenty times better? And we can conclude from this that there is an obvious bias in terms of the people who end up running them.

Mika points out that there has been decades of work put into encouraging girls into STEM. That's true, kind of, but this is something which does take decades to achieve. Kids' career preferences can often start at a very early age, and the only way to improve the proportion of women in tech is by making the field open and accessible to young girls, and to promote that option to them.

Hamfisted "women are just different and we shouldn't worry about it" articles are probably not helping.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#66
The history of standardized testing and the history of statistics 'proving' that minorities are innately different in some way are inextricably linked. The original intelligence tests 'proved' to the American populace that Italian and Irish immigrants were intellectually inferior to Anglo Saxons because of their lower IQ scores. Magically, as those populations integrated, their IQ scores normalized. Oops.

This article reads like those (thankfully) classic evolutionary biology texts. Statistics bookend arguments that draw wild inferences. I feel sorry for the numbers, they're crying out, "Wait a second, I'm just a standardized test score, I can't tell you that it's because men always fashioned weapons! Weapons didn't even factor into my study!" How does it follow that standardized test scores can prove anything about nature vs. nurture, especially when they have a history of not doing so?

It's a hallmark of that area of modern evolutionary biology to say, "I'm saying what everyone else is afraid to." Well, people are afraid to say it because they're afraid to say wrong things! One should not ignore statistics that show differences between populations, but one should certainly not use them to confirm one's own essentialist beliefs.

Especially in this environment. The burden of proof should be squarely and severely on the one arguing that differences are innate, not on those arguing that differences are malleable/cultural. Why? Because once society has concluded that differences are innate, then glass ceilings turn into concrete ceilings, and discrimination becomes institutionalized.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#67

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing.

I agree. Research and data might make people feel bad, and not making people feel bad is obviously way more important than increasing knowledge.

> We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.

I agree. Personally I think we should withhold all math education to males until they are 21. We can discontinue this policy when there is a 50/50 gender split among all STEM workers, educators, and investors.

> we should assume and act as though differences are due to bias long after the differences are well proven to be natural

Yep. 1+1=3. Doesn't matter if you can prove that 1+1=2.

> It is a case where being wrong in one direction is not very costly, but being wrong in the other direction (and thus institutionalizing bias) is disastrous.

Yep, unimaginable catastrophes.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#68
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused as to why you are bringing up genetics. The article didn't. Is this just a straw man you wish to knock down?

Perhaps I should've said biologically, as the article did. The point is that when you say one class of people (females) isn't represented in an industry because "they just aren't born that way," what differentiates it from any other class of people (such as African Americans).

Nothing. There could be genetic differences between people of African descent and others and these might affect intelligence.

In fact, we know there are genetic differences, we just don't know that they affect intelligence.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#69
post #46

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

>Over the course of history, far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias. An obvious counterexample would be sexual orientation: believing that being gay is a choice is used by many as an argument to justify discrimination.

While it is a good point, I don't think that's directly analogous: I was talking about population statistics and biases that lead to different outcomes in different groups.

Two similar but not identical dichotomies: * A population difference is due to innate differences vs a difference is due to systemic biases * An individual difference is due to innate makeup vs a difference is due to individual choices

The question: Why is the % of people with X characteristic in Y profession lower than the average. Applying my proposed standard above to that question, assume differences are due to biases until sumarily proven, we still aren't encouraging or abiding discrimination when X characteristic is sexual orientation.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#70

This sounds like it was written for a 12th grade research assignment and makes several incorrect inferences without a basis of fact, i.e. the male hunting equating to math reasoning. I tend to think of it as the same reason minorities are not prevalent in these places either, probably because society held them as "lower class" until recently and they are just now making gains which are long overdue. All in all, women…

"Fastest growing" ... http://xkcd.com/1102/
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