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Hordes Of Novices

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Re: Hordes Of Novices

#61

Post by GVIrish »

venomsnake wrote: post #14
jasonlotito wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing people learning things because what they might create with that knowledge is just wrong He doesn't oppose people learning things. > Obviously they're not going to be writing commercial or critical systems. No. That's exactly what he's talking about. The trend to hire more people rather than better people. FTA: "Do we really need to keep on recruiting and training cannon fodder to throw at software projects…

I had a big project failed once because at the beginning out rockstar programmer/ninja/free electron (and he was a genuine one) threw a temper tantrum and said - I am bored of working with Microchip Pics (don't worry if you are young and don't know what that is) I want to use something more powerful - so we switched vendors, the stack to keep him satisfied. It went downhill. Sometimes you need mediocre guy for a non…

I think what you encountered is a different type of trap, the trap of the talented jerk. The guy/gal who is brilliant, so they're allowed to get away with a crappy and/or irrational attitude. Sometimes this works out well, but other times it'd be better to hire someone may not be of the same caliber skills-wise, but has a better attitude and is more pragmatic.

Your coworker might not have been a true "jerk" per se, but he certainly sounded irrational.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#62

Post by wwkeyboard »

I love the idea of starting people on the path to learning how to build applications. However I think he brings up a good point, I can't find on the code academy website where it says "this is a start to long process of learning". appacademy goes as far as to say 12 weeks and you're in.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#63

Post by Nimi »

robin2 wrote: post #48
robin2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd say that you'd really want a heart transplant done by a surgeon, not a doctor... That said, I think the real questions is: who is Robert Martin, self-described uber-hacker, that his opinions should be taken so seriously? What has he written?

To expand on that a bit, I should mention that this question came up at a software craftsmanship meetup, after Martin had given a talk in Cambridge. (Incidentally, people who had seen him speak had been very disappointed.) The only answers to "Who is Uncle Bob?" seemed to be "He's very old" and "He wrote a book". Given his schtick is to be a sage figure of comparable stature to, say, Don Knuth or Brian Kernighan, I d…

I find the described interaction problematic from an agile standpoint: "People and interactions over processes and tools" - and then, they agree to give a lecture on TDD? You're describing literally shoving a process down the throats of unwilling programmers.

I'm not an agile expert, but it seems to me they should have refused such an arrangement, and plainly say: "Right now, you don't use an agile methodology. Us giving a lecture to your guys won't change that, it will simply be a waste of your money. You can rent from us an agile coach for minimum 6 months, and she will try to transition you to an agile methodology. This isn't a single decision you make and then 'bam, you're agile' - this affects hiring, you might even have to let go of programmers who won't play along. Don't pay us for a lecture that will simply anger your employees and achieve nothing."

Regardless of the usual agile vs. waterfall debates, what they did sounds to me very far from the principles of being agile.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#64

Post by dragonwriter »

shittyanalogy wrote: post #45
noonespecial wrote: post #24

If one doctor can transplant a heart in ten hours, can ten nurses transplant that heart in one hour? Can a hundred nursing assistants transplant that heart in six minutes? Can six hundred hospital receptionists transplant that heart in one minute? The real question is: Could the doctor do the transplant without any nurses? Could the nurses help the doctor without the receptionists?

Ironically your argument fails as it depends entirely on skill level. A highly skilled surgeon could perform emergency surgery without standard resources, and you could run an emergency hospital without receptionists. Let's not get distracted by shitty analogys.

> and you could run an emergency hospital without receptionists.

Not for long, at least in the US, without replacing receptionists at least 1:1 with other people doing the job of receptionists (which, in the emergency room of a hospital, is entirely about getting identification, signed consent for treatment, and insurance/payment information from patients so that the hospital gets paid for the service it provides.)

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#65

Post by mathattack »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #56
mathattack wrote: post #28

IMHO... You can't get a crew of experienced software engineers without starting with hordes of novices. It's just not a field where you can say, "Pass the entrance exam, get some mentoring, and come back in 6 years with experience." It's a field that you need to explore and find if you have the passion. (And I hate the word passion) So it might take 20 novices coming out of these feeders to find 10 who become decent…

> And what's the alternative? I think the author gives an alternative in the form of his pilot training; intense training before being allowed to write code (= a proper and full education, instead of a course), and pair programming (= co-pilot) with an experienced or non-novice pilot (developer). The big corporate world doesn't tend to agree with this though, two people doing one job seems like a waste of money and t…

Do you think this is the solution? Would it work in any environment? Start-up for instance?

One could argue that training a programmer should be like training a doctor - once you get over the initial hurdle of getting into Medical school, it's all about a long period of learning and mentorship.

My impression is that great programmers can come from unlikely sources. It's ok to cast a wider net for people, when the worst thing that happens is that they're more skilled for their efforts.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#66

Post by robin2 »

Nimi wrote: post #63
robin2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on that a bit, I should mention that this question came up at a software craftsmanship meetup, after Martin had given a talk in Cambridge. (Incidentally, people who had seen him speak had been very disappointed.) The only answers to "Who is Uncle Bob?" seemed to be "He's very old" and "He wrote a book". Given his schtick is to be a sage figure of comparable stature to, say, Don Knuth or Brian Kernighan, I d…

I find the described interaction problematic from an agile standpoint: "People and interactions over processes and tools" - and then, they agree to give a lecture on TDD? You're describing literally shoving a process down the throats of unwilling programmers. I'm not an agile expert, but it seems to me they should have refused such an arrangement, and plainly say: "Right now, you don't use an agile methodology. Us gi…

In this case, I don't think the company can be blamed. As I recall, it hadn't asked for TDD training, it had asked for C++ training. So if anyone should be blamed it would be ObjectMentor for (a) hearing this as "introduction to object orientation", and (b) sending someone with rusty C++ skills.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#67

Post by Nimi »

robin2 wrote: post #66
Nimi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the described interaction problematic from an agile standpoint: "People and interactions over processes and tools" - and then, they agree to give a lecture on TDD? You're describing literally shoving a process down the throats of unwilling programmers. I'm not an agile expert, but it seems to me they should have refused such an arrangement, and plainly say: "Right now, you don't use an agile methodology. Us gi…

In this case, I don't think the company can be blamed. As I recall, it hadn't asked for TDD training, it had asked for C++ training. So if anyone should be blamed it would be ObjectMentor for (a) hearing this as "introduction to object orientation", and (b) sending someone with rusty C++ skills.

That's what I meant - even if your employer asked for TDD training, ObjectMentor should have objected on the grounds that it will achieve nothing.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#69

Post by marcus_holmes »

jasonlotito wrote: post #4
marcus_holmes wrote: post #3

yes, Uncle Bob, we do need hordes of novices. Because in the days of yore only monks and priests knew how to read and write, and that was bad. Getting everyone to read and write is good. 90% of what they write will be crap, but that's better than not having them write at all. Obviously they're not going to be writing commercial or critical systems. Learning to code helps people deal with technology, but it doesn't ma…

> Opposing people learning things because what they might create with that knowledge is just wrong He doesn't oppose people learning things. > Obviously they're not going to be writing commercial or critical systems. No. That's exactly what he's talking about. The trend to hire more people rather than better people. FTA: "Do we really need to keep on recruiting and training cannon fodder to throw at software projects…

I did... the point with people learning to code is precisely not that they're going to get hired to write code (that's what we professionals do).

The current craze for teaching people to code that he references has (in my experience at least) got nothing to do with creating a horde of junior devs, but is to do with people waking up to the fact that they're effectively illiterate.

I agree entirely that 9 women can't produce a baby in one month, and that hiring 20 random junior devs is not going to make a development task go faster than 5 experienced devs in a decently managed development team.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#70

Post by robin2 »

Nimi wrote: post #67
robin2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, I don't think the company can be blamed. As I recall, it hadn't asked for TDD training, it had asked for C++ training. So if anyone should be blamed it would be ObjectMentor for (a) hearing this as "introduction to object orientation", and (b) sending someone with rusty C++ skills.

That's what I meant - even if your employer asked for TDD training, ObjectMentor should have objected on the grounds that it will achieve nothing.

Well, ObjectMentor got paid, someone at the company got to tick a box to say that developers had been given appropriate training, and we got a break from real work.

Corporate training is an odd business, it has to be said.

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